Offense

[KY Bearcat]

This thread is not a discussion over the coaching situation.

Whether you are content with the teams progress or disappointed with recent struggles, can we all agree that we the offense we run is ineffective and at times non-existent?

What needs to happen to improve this offense? The movement seems lackadaisical, we are undisciplined, often shooting 30 3's in a game when we have maybe 2 consistent shooters. We rarely use the post, rather pass the ball around the perimeter and either settle for a contested 3 or as a last resort drive recklessly into the lane and brick a layup...that may be a little harsh, but our offense is no doubt ineffective...we are 13th in the conference in scoring and our FG% is 219th in D1 basketball...

I am not confident that simply upgrading the talent will cure all problems. Do you think it will? Why don't we bring in an assistant who knows offense? Our offensive efficiency must be improved for us to be successful in the BEast and consistently finish in the top half of the conference.

[Joco45215]

This thread is not a discussion over the coaching situation.

Whether you are content with the teams progress or disappointed with recent struggles, can we all agree that we the offense we run is ineffective and at times non-existent?

What needs to happen to improve this offense? The movement seems lackadaisical, we are undisciplined, often shooting 30 3's in a game when we have maybe 2 consistent shooters. We rarely use the post, rather pass the ball around the perimeter and either settle for a contested 3 or as a last resort drive recklessly into the lane and brick a layup...that may be a little harsh, but our offense is no doubt ineffective...we are 13th in the conference in scoring and our FG% is 219th in D1 basketball...

I am not confident that simply upgrading the talent will cure all problems. Do you think it will? Why don't we bring in an assistant who knows offense? Our offensive efficiency must be improved for us to be successful in the BEast and consistently finish in the top half of the conference.

I said yesterday he needs to get rid of buddies and hire real coaches, these assistants are not getting it done...George Jackson can coach highschool but dont look to promising in college

[TheLivingLegend]

I am not confident that simply upgrading the talent will cure all problems. Do you think it will? Why don't we bring in an assistant who knows offense? Our offensive efficiency must be improved for us to be successful in the BEast and consistently finish in the top half of the conference.

I cannot stand our offense. I feel like its a high pick and roll at the top of the key. Or a 3 guard weave at the top of the key. What does that accomplish? There is no inside out game what so ever.

In fairness I do like some of the out of bounds sets Mick runs.

[Joco45215]

look at my "wheres the beef" thread it says what i think about this team

[bearcatbbllfn]

This thread is not a discussion over the coaching situation.

Whether you are content with the teams progress or disappointed with recent struggles, can we all agree that we the offense we run is ineffective and at times non-existent?

What needs to happen to improve this offense? The movement seems lackadaisical, we are undisciplined, often shooting 30 3's in a game when we have maybe 2 consistent shooters. We rarely use the post, rather pass the ball around the perimeter and either settle for a contested 3 or as a last resort drive recklessly into the lane and brick a layup...that may be a little harsh, but our offense is no doubt ineffective...we are 13th in the conference in scoring and our FG% is 219th in D1 basketball...

I am not confident that simply upgrading the talent will cure all problems. Do you think it will? Why don't we bring in an assistant who knows offense? Our offensive efficiency must be improved for us to be successful in the BEast and consistently finish in the top half of the conference.


I dont know what to think. It looks similiar to others in the league. Since we have no true post presence to control the inside/out game, can we even come to a conclusion on this?

[KY Bearcat]

At times we move the ball around the perimeter well enough to get ahead of the opposing defense, but that might be once out of every 5 trips down the court...we HAVE to have more movement on the inside. When our bigs stand around on the block, our guards have no choice but to heave the ball around the perimeter...its just plain old ugly and ineffective.

...not to mention, we only have one guy maybe two in SK and DD who can slash and get to the rim...anyone else goes to the rim, its usually a missed layup or a turnover.

Our offense really is as simple as a grade school offense, just with bigger more athletic guys. The coach has to know the offense isn't working...hopefully we do something about it...

[bearcat_cd]

Listen to the postgame of the SJ game. He says it best with "keep moving", you have to "continue to run the offense." It's a matter of listening, understanding, and then finally going out there and performing. It seems that they know, but mentally they just psyche themselves out. They need to also be patient and take the best opportunity that comes. SJ packed it in, and therefore you have to make open looks. The best offense would be to keep moving, move the ball, look for the best shot, and keep working. This also means get back on defense, and don't let your offense, refs, fans, etc dictate your game. I thought something interesting Mick said was, "I had to find five guys that want to get back and play defense." Everyone needs to come to play. I thought last year in the BET the team was ALL giving effort and doing the little things right. Each game it seems only only a handful of players come to play. Consistency is the key.

[KY Bearcat]

Listen to the postgame of the SJ game. He says it best with "keep moving", you have to "continue to run the offense." It's a matter of listening, understanding, and then finally going out there and performing. It seems that they know, but mentally they just psyche themselves out. They need to also be patient and take the best opportunity that comes. SJ packed it in, and therefore you have to make open looks. The best offense would be to keep moving, move the ball, look for the best shot, and keep working. This also means get back on defense, and don't let your offense, refs, fans, etc dictate your game. I thought something interesting Mick said was, "I had to find five guys that want to get back and play defense." Everyone needs to come to play. I thought last year in the BET the team was ALL giving effort and doing the little things right. Each game it seems only only a handful of players come to play. Consistency is the key.

Great post. Why do you think it is that we struggle so much with consistency? The majority of other teams in the BEast seem to have it...

[Who Dey Time]

Great post. Why do you think it is that we struggle so much with consistency? The majority of other teams in the BEast seem to have it...

Look at the Big East standings. Consistency is a problem for a majority of the league this season with the exceptions of Pitt, Notre Dame, and Georgetown.

I agree 100% with the post about continual movement. Our biggest problem is when guys stop. When they continue to move there are open shots and opportunites at the rim.

[KY Bearcat]

Look at the Big East standings. Consistency is a problem for a majority of the league this season with the exceptions of Pitt, Notre Dame, and Georgetown.

I agree 100% with the post about continual movement. Our biggest problem is when guys stop. When they continue to move there are open shots and opportunites at the rim.

Consistency in the BEast is a struggle from a wins and losses standpoint but the better teams in the BEast impose their offense against nearly every opponent...we have imposed our offense on DePaul, Rutgers, and somewhat against South Florida...we failed to do so against several teams that we should have at least been able to compete with.

[bearcat_cd]

Great post. Why do you think it is that we struggle so much with consistency? The majority of other teams in the BEast seem to have it...

Like I said, mentality. Some guys have that others don't. Kilpatrick, Davis, and Bishop might be the only players who seem strong mentally. It's also about the extra time you put in. Who knows about that? Either way I think most people are dumbfounded by Gates, Wright, and Dixon. They can put up 20+ points one night, and the next night put up < 10. That's inconsistent and that is in my opinion due to mentality. I've seen cashmere pass up way to many open looks. He has the best pull up jumper on the team, good three point shooter, and he is scared to take it, except against WVU and look what happened. Dixon is the same. Take it to the hole, use your pump fakes, and IMO he needs to play with more fire like he was earlier. Gates, we know the story. However, I think we are not the only inconsistent team. Heck, SJU scored 90+ against Duke and UConn, and only 59 against us. Everyone is inconsistent, but we are obviously the most inconsistent on offense for what I believe we have.

[Who Dey Time]

Consistency in the BEast is a struggle from a wins and losses standpoint but the better teams in the BEast impose their offense against nearly every opponent...we have imposed our offense on DePaul, Rutgers, and somewhat against South Florida...we failed to do so against several teams that we should have at least been able to compete with.

We'll agree to disagree. I think if you look at the overall season you'll see that UL, Syracuse, UConn, WVU have struggled to score at times.

What I also found interesting in looking at the stats from conference play is that their is only an 11 point difference from the league's top scoring team, Marquette, and the team in last place which is USF. As usual it comes down to a few shots. UC has got those shots at times and needs to do a better job of converting.

[KY Bearcat]

We'll agree to disagree. I think if you look at the overall season you'll see that UL, Syracuse, UConn, WVU have struggled to score at times.

What I also found interesting in looking at the stats from conference play is that their is only an 11 point difference from the league's top scoring team, Marquette, and the team in last place which is USF. As usual it comes down to a few shots. UC has got those shots at times and needs to do a better job of converting.

I noticed that as well about the 11 point difference from bottom to top when looking at the stats. Any idea what our point averages have been the previous few seasons?

[red_n_black_attack]

I said yesterday he needs to get rid of buddies and hire real coaches, these assistants are not getting it done...George Jackson can coach highschool but dont look to promising in college

Would anyone want Chuck Machock as an assistant? Would Chuck accept?

I'd love to get a head coach at a lower level looking to get assistant head coaching experience in the best basketball conference in the world!

[beeman7467]

The offense seems to be based on passing the ball around the perimeter looking for an opening inside that rarely occurs and then taking a low percentage outside shoot. I have no issue with the 3 ball and think it can be an effective way to score, but they do not have a single player who can make that shot consistently and don't seem to ever address the problem in recruiting. I may be crazy, but didn't MC's Murray State teams run and score in bunches? If that is what you feel comfortable doing, then why not do it? Maybe not full time (and I understand it's a two edge sword - just ask UCONN about the recent SJU game), but every once in awhile speed things up. It seems the entire game plan is based around "uglying" up the game and winning 60-59. I watch the other team consistently move the ball outside in and then knock down a 15 jumper on a regular basis. Those same shots are doomed for Cincinnati. The camera angles are so good today that, while depth of shot can't be seen, alignment can. Has anyone ever noticed that 80% of the shots they take seem off the left or right to the point that you know it's not going down the minute the ball leaves the players hands? Is that footwork? Technique? I don't know, but it isn't pretty. They have no identity on offense. Even if you just do one thing well, the other team can't stop it if you execute. If you want to score from the outside, get guys who can shoot. If you want to bang away in the lane, put your bigs on the block and tell them to stay there or they won't play.

[weez1414]

I really dont know the answer of who's fault it really is, but did anyone see the Kansas State game last night, all 5 players were running around never stopping Idont know if Martin runs a great offense or not but what i saw was a team that gets if you run around , set picks, and confuse the he!! out of the defense you get open easy looks and can beat a much more talented team. I couldn't keep track of the guys and I was watching it on T.V. Movement and less mistakes and this team would be much better. All this typing and I feel like I just kicked the dead horse.

[MicksTheGuy]

Well what we could do is stop being like the rest of the teams in our league and become a run and gun sort of team. Press like heck and move the ball up the court as fast as possible. Look for dunks and easy layups.

[Cpaw]

I really dont know the answer of who's fault it really is, but did anyone see the Kansas State game last night, all 5 players were running around never stopping Idont know if Martin runs a great offense or not but what i saw was a team that gets if you run around , set picks, and confuse the he!! out of the defense you get open easy looks and can beat a much more talented team. I couldn't keep track of the guys and I was watching it on T.V. Movement and less mistakes and this team would be much better. All this typing and I feel like I just kicked the dead horse.

Their offense did look great last night, but did you see the same offense when they lost to Colorado last week? The difference between making and missing shots!

[OCASCM07]

The way I've always determined if an offense is effective is whether or not it allows players to get open. From watching what Mick has been trying to do with the offense for the past 5 years I have to say that his offense is very effective when run properly, that is continuous ball and player movement when the ball only stops for a wide open shot, a post move, or a dribble penetration to get someone else open or to create your own shot. Last year Vaughn and Stephenson were the two players I felt that were most responsible for not letting the offense run long enough, this year it appears that the players are Killa (which I blame on inexperience), Wilks (I blame that on him wanting to create his own plays) and Bishop (which I blame on him being addicted to making boneheaded decisions). We run a very effective offense against the zone when our players are hitting their shots the perfect example of this is watching every team that played Syracuse right after us running the same exact offense we did but hitting their wide open shots both from outside and inside (the way Yancy and Ibba missed all those wide open layups at the start of the second half against Syracuse when the Orange made their run was sickening).

When it comes to breaking the press my one complaint is that the ball handler cannot keep picking up their dribble as much as Dixon, Killa, and Cash did on Sunday. Mick touched on that in his postgame that I heard on the way home from the game which leads me to believe that this is a mental error on the players part. Once you pick up your dribble you allow the defense to swarm to you since your only option is to pass out at that point.

So in short I think our offense would please a large number of fans if a) our players were more consistent shooters, b) our players look to make the extra pass, and c) if our players learn to not pick up their dribble unless they are driving because it limits what you can do with the ball which allows the defense to trap/double team the ball handler especially if players don't come back to get the ball.

[BasketBySteveLogan]

It comes down to this. No true point guard. You look at pretty much any team at any level who struggles offensively, and more times than not, it comes down to point guard play.

I love Cashmere and I think he has a nice game, but he just is not the true point & leader you need to score consistently in the Big East.

Couple that with the fact that our wings couldn't beat Roseanne Barr off the dribble, and you get < 60 points against good teams.

Pitino gonna play matchup zone tomorrow, gonna be more of the same.

[coach]

the first thing that needs to happen for this offense with its' current roster of players which can't change is to shoot the ball more consistently. in all of these big east losses. they have missed numerous wide open looks. it isn't one player either, dixon,kpat,davis,bishop, et. al have shot the ball badly in conference play. there is an article covering lavin's comments after the sj game on rivals uc site that dwells on this.

the other downfalls of large proportion are:

1. against the zone defenses which we are now seeing regularly, there is almost no movement to get the ball into the center of the zone, or the sweetspot which is the achilles heal of breaking one and getting good shots and putbacks. they are not looking for a guy when he tries to receive a ball in that spot, and secondly the receiver often steps out too far once he doesn't immediately get the ball. if you can't get the ball in there to collapse the zone, you generally get what we see regularly which is a lot of passing around the perimeter. bishop actually made a nice cut into the center for his final miss. there needs to be a lot more of this, and it isn't happening.
2. we get nothing in transition. our guards have been largely content with not pushing the ball. i thought this was a potential strength, but for some reason we're basically non existent in this area as well. how a team with this guard depth doesn't seek to get up and down the court is somewhat curious.
3. lastly, we are getting little to no post up opportunities, which is basically leading to our age old problem of getting fewer opportunities at the ft line. it is even a bigger problem in that we are not forcing any defenses in the man to man setup to provide help down low which frees up a rebounder or a guy open to pass to. this should have been gate's strength, and against x and dayton, we saw that. it's not generally available against the zone. they might be better off posting up a bigger guard who can pass as in theory it should work whereby he'll draw another defender and can find an open man.

unfortunately, these are rather big offensive pitfalls. we should be better in all of these areas at this point. they have far to many veteran players. why they are not is anybody's guess, but i know there are a lot of opinions.

[waterhead]

The offense seems to be based on passing the ball around the perimeter looking for an opening inside that rarely occurs and then taking a low percentage outside shoot. I have no issue with the 3 ball and think it can be an effective way to score, but they do not have a single player who can make that shot consistently and don't seem to ever address the problem in recruiting. I may be crazy, but didn't MC's Murray State teams run and score in bunches? If that is what you feel comfortable doing, then why not do it? Maybe not full time (and I understand it's a two edge sword - just ask UCONN about the recent SJU game), but every once in awhile speed things up. It seems the entire game plan is based around "uglying" up the game and winning 60-59. I watch the other team consistently move the ball outside in and then knock down a 15 jumper on a regular basis. Those same shots are doomed for Cincinnati. The camera angles are so good today that, while depth of shot can't be seen, alignment can. Has anyone ever noticed that 80% of the shots they take seem off the left or right to the point that you know it's not going down the minute the ball leaves the players hands? Is that footwork? Technique? I don't know, but it isn't pretty. They have no identity on offense. Even if you just do one thing well, the other team can't stop it if you execute. If you want to score from the outside, get guys who can shoot. If you want to bang away in the lane, put your bigs on the block and tell them to stay there or they won't play.

We have 3 guys shooting about 39% or better at the 3. Cash, SK, and Davis. It's the 2 ball we are having the worst problem with right now. Our guys can't shoot very well on the move. They are out of control and some don't handle the rock very well. I would like to see more pull up J's as they get past their first man instead of continuing too far in the lane for charge calls, blocks and turnovers.

[BearcatAlum1]

I really dont know the answer of who's fault it really is, but did anyone see the Kansas State game last night, all 5 players were running around never stopping Idont know if Martin runs a great offense or not but what i saw was a team that gets if you run around , set picks, and confuse the he!! out of the defense you get open easy looks and can beat a much more talented team. I couldn't keep track of the guys and I was watching it on T.V. Movement and less mistakes and this team would be much better. All this typing and I feel like I just kicked the dead horse.

Kstate played great, but it helped that Pullen droppe 38. 38!

Kstate's offense has been bad for most of the conference slate. Martin had his guys playing well last night, and they brought energy/movement for a full 40 minutes. Kstate's offense is nothing we want to replicate, but they did play well last night.

Bottom line is that we need to be efficient on offense to win. We don't have much room for error. We also had 13 TOs against SJU which led to some easy baskets. We must play well to beat the top BE teams, and we haven't done that... We cannot get by on sheer talent alone.

[Deaf_Bearcat]

If you play a great defense, but your score is some points behind, then ignite the offense to win the game. That is what UC lacks of.

[weez1414]

Kstate played great, but it helped that Pullen droppe 38. 38!

Kstate's offense has been bad for most of the conference slate. Martin had his guys playing well last night, and they brought energy/movement for a full 40 minutes. Kstate's offense is nothing we want to replicate, but they did play well last night.

Bottom line is that we need to be efficient on offense to win. We don't have much room for error. We also had 13 TOs against SJU which led to some easy baskets. We must play well to beat the top BE teams, and we haven't done that... We cannot get by on sheer talent alone.

Pullen got to the line 18 times and the movement was great I'm not even saying K- State is great there like 8th in their conference the movement was just crazy. But Pullen reminded me of Logan last night hit his 3's, hit his free throws and numerous layups. I can name alot of other teams but the movement has to be there, we are not going to win anymore games if we just chuck 3's period. Heck even Cuse won the game on layups and movement last night i just wish I could remember the last fast break layup or backdoor layup we've made.

[coach]

shooting %'s this season:

losses 35% wins 46%

from 3

losses 30% wins 35%

We also average 20 3 attempts per game which seems like quite a few which i think we would all acknowledge.

[TheJumperIsWet]

I am not a fan of Cronin's offense, but what they run produces open shots. The kids just have to work harder at making shots. My real problem with the offense revolves around fundamentals. I think the players fundamentals are below average and so it makes no difference what kind of offense they run, its not going to work as well.

Example:
Against WVU Yancy caught the ball 2 feet above the top of the key. Cam Thoroughman, who is 2 inches shorter and weights a lot less forced Yancy to fall backwards losing his balance and he missed the backdoor cut by Dixon for a layup. Yancy put the ball above his head and Thoroughman climbed his chest and forced him to fall backwards, thus unable to execute the pass on the backdoor cut. Yancy needed to catch the ball and square up into triple threat position, the defender can't crowd you because you can drive the ball on them. They display poor fundamentals in every game and thats what causes breakdowns in their offensive execution.

[JDBEARCAT]

I feel we need to hire an assistant coach that is offensive minded. Cronin has the defense going in the right direction but we can't consistently put up good offensive #'s.
We also need some pure shooters like Kilpatrick.
If we had big man that went to basket more, then our shooting % would go up. It seems
we don't have any player that consistently shoots 5 -10 foot shoots on a regular basis.
StJ's had alot of short shots go down that are high % & killed us.

[Cats4Ever]

No doubt with the lack of proven shooters on UC's team the opposing teams would play a lot of zone against UC.

Kilpatrick can shoot em, but lately he has taken to flinging up shots without getting set.

Take away Yancy, and the zone defense can now move out a little further.

Pre-season coach cronin said they want to play an uptempo style and had enough of a roster to press a lot. They seem like they can do that in spurts, but not sustain it. The ND game comes to mind where I thought they should have pressed more.

Without a consistent dribble-driver (which Cash should be) the offense reverts to three perimeter passes and then a 3-pointer.

Giving this team an incomplete grade for offense.

[ucat4]

Pre-season coach cronin said they want to play an uptempo style and had enough of a roster to press a lot. They seem like they can do that in spurts, but not sustain it. The ND game comes to mind where I thought they should have pressed more.

Without a consistent dribble-driver (which Cash should be) the offense reverts to three perimeter passes and then a 3-pointer.

Giving this team an incomplete grade for offense.

I thought I heard him say this as well. It seems like we let the other team impose their style on us rather than us imposing our style on the other team. I could've sworn he mentioned wanting to have a run and gun type fast paced offense.....who knows. We have depth but don't seem to use it to our advantage. Maybe he thinks we're a Pitino type 3pt shooting team, afterall we do chuck up a ton of threes.

[OCASCM07]

No doubt with the lack of proven shooters on UC's team the opposing teams would play a lot of zone against UC.

Kilpatrick can shoot em, but lately he has taken to flinging up shots without getting set.

Take away Yancy, and the zone defense can now move out a little further.

Pre-season coach cronin said they want to play an uptempo style and had enough of a roster to press a lot. They seem like they can do that in spurts, but not sustain it. The ND game comes to mind where I thought they should have pressed more.

Without a consistent dribble-driver (which Cash should be) the offense reverts to three perimeter passes and then a 3-pointer.

Giving this team an incomplete grade for offense.


Here's the problem most people don't think of when they say we have to press more to set up fast break opportunities or that we don't press enough. We have to score. No one can set up a good press if the other team doesn't have to take the ball out and put it back inbounds off a made shot or a timeout. That's what happened at Notre Dame, our shots weren't falling early so we couldn't press them more. When our shots started falling towards the end we were able to press the **** out of them.

It all goes back to the fact that we still need solid Big East caliber players that can put the ball in the rack and play defense. I think with the addition of supposedly very solid shooters in Thomas, Sanders, Davis, Ellis and especially a true PG in Guyn next year as well as the offseason development of all of our returning players we'll be making people realize that Mick was running a great offense all along but he just didn't have the shooters to make it look as efficient as the same teams that ran our same exact offense against Syracuse after we lost but they made their shots. Again get rid of the players Mick only had an average fo 8.5 months to scout, recruit, and sign that are our senior class and replace them with true BEast caliber players and we'll be fine.