2009 class

[Scheids21]

in the class of 2009 uc doesnt seem to be in anybody in the top 75's list. and at first this really worried me but ive realized a lot of great players werent highly recruited (ex. douglas-roberts out of memphis was barely in the top 150). so i guess im posing the questions: 1. does anyone know how highly kenyon martin was recruited? and 2. is anyone else a little worried that we dont have the big time recruits of next years class looking to play in cincy?

[NorrisHopper30]

How many schollys will we have for the '09 class if we get Mackey?

Isn't one already for McElroy?

[ralph1950]

Mick said if he could sign 3 additional guys who can play for next season he would do it. He said you never know what is going to happen, sign them and worry about it later.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

sign them and worry about it later Yep.

There are ways to do it.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

in the class of 2009 uc doesnt seem to be in anybody in the top 75's list. and at first this really worried me but ive realized a lot of great players werent highly recruited (ex. douglas-roberts out of memphis was barely in the top 150). so i guess im posing the questions: 1. does anyone know how highly kenyon martin was recruited? and 2. is anyone else a little worried that we dont have the big time recruits of next years class looking to play in cincy?

Douglas-Roberts was very highly regarded. Kentucky and Mich St both were after him.

I'd again caution putting too much (or any) value in Who Lists Who or Who's Top 75 or anything like that.

Van Exel, Blount, Herb Jones, Logan, none were in Top 75 lists in HS.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

in the class of 2009 uc doesnt seem to be in anybody in the top 75's list. and at first this really worried me but ive realized a lot of great players werent highly recruited (ex. douglas-roberts out of memphis was barely in the top 150). so i guess im posing the questions: 1. does anyone know how highly kenyon martin was recruited? and 2. is anyone else a little worried that we dont have the big time recruits of next years class looking to play in cincy?

Kenyon Martin was Top 25 to 50 rated. UC and Kentucky were 2 of his final 4 schools.

Just like Jason Maxiell. Top 25 to 50. UC and Kentucky were his final 2.

[Bearcat Jeff]

I wouldn't worry too much. Mick has found talent every where he has recruited. Plus, it is more important to find players who fit into your system. This program really needs another class of mostly 4 year players to solidify the foundation of the rebuild. I wouldn't mind them looking into CJ Giles who was dismissed recently. He had a troubled (immature) past but it looks like his dismissal was more related to the new coach wanting to make a clean break than anything major. At one point he was down to U.C. and Kansas I believe. I think as a dismissal he would be eligible to play right away as well and he would give us a solid low post player. Listening to the kid I believe he has grown up some.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I wouldn't worry too much. Mick has found talent every where he has recruited. Plus, it is more important to find players who fit into your system. This program really needs another class of mostly 4 year players to solidify the foundation of the rebuild. I wouldn't mind them looking into CJ Giles who was dismissed recently. He had a troubled (immature) past but it looks like his dismissal was more related to the new coach wanting to make a clean break than anything major. At one point he was down to U.C. and Kansas I believe. I think as a dismissal he would be eligible to play right away as well and he would give us a solid low post player. Listening to the kid I believe he has grown up some.

CJ Giles was dismissed from Kansas. Now he is dismissed from Oregon State. UC was among his Top 2 or 3 choices a few years back.

Would have to sit out until Nov 2009 unless he quickly enrolled for Winter Quarter at UC.

[Joe C.]

Kenyon Martin was Top 25 to 50 rated.

Completely inaccurate. He was a top 100 in most recruiting services. I still have the Street & Smith's at home that list him as an honorable mention nationally.

[CincyBeerCo]

Completely inaccurate. He was a top 100 in most recruiting services. I still have the Street & Smith's at home that list him as an honorable mention nationally.

I agree. I dont remember Kenyon being that high either. I remember that KY was in the mix, but (obviously not that it matters) he wasn't ranked that high.

[MikeInClifton]

Completely inaccurate. He was a top 100 in most recruiting services. I still have the Street & Smith's at home that list him as an honorable mention nationally.

So I'm guessing that 1958 has a different book than Street and Smith's then. Its all about what publication, scout or service your read/subscribe to.

I seem to recall Kenyon was 25-50 as well in one service, but it was far from a consensus.

[ralph1950]

So I'm guessing that 1958 has a different book than Street and Smith's then. Its all about what publication, scout or service your read/subscribe to.

I seem to recall Kenyon was 25-50 as well in one service, but it was far from a consensus.


Kenyon Martin was in no one's top 25 to 50 and Pitino never recruited him, but as Mike said 1958 seems to have books that no one else can buy. Also as 1958 has stated on these boards none of these recruiting services know where a guy is going to go to school, although now he seems to be stating that some recruiting magazines know where they are going to school.

Maxiell was never recruited by Kentucky either.

[Mick's Da Man]

Off the top of my head, Kenyon was not rated that high by 90% of the recruiting services. I remember going back soon after we got him and trying to find his recruiting rankings and nothing really stood out as to him being highly ranked. He will always be thought of as that diamond in the rough.

Maxiell was ranked in the 40-50 range by most. So was Hicks. Stokes was ranked in the 90-100 range.

As for 2009 recruiting, sometimes I wonder if Mick wishes he hadn't recruited Danny McElroy. I think he was trying to make a statement in terms of getting Cincinnati's best high school player year after year..........and he did it with Yancy for the 2008 class and now it will be McElroy. Not sure McElroy will be considered the best player in Cincy next year, though. He seems to have fallen off the national radar somewhat. I guess if he plays in the national tournaments against better competition, the recruiting pundits will be able to gauge his stock and then we will know more.

Honestly, if Mike Williams gets an extra year, Aldridge gets his scholarship......then we will have 3 scholarships available for 2010. We will have 6 available for '11 if all the freshmen stay 4 years. And there's always that chance of Gates going pro early.

[jeffto]

Off the top of my head, Kenyon was not rated that high by 90% of the recruiting services. I remember going back soon after we got him and trying to find his recruiting rankings and nothing really stood out as to him being highly ranked. He will always be thought of as that diamond in the rough.

Maxiell was ranked in the 40-50 range by most. So was Hicks. Stokes was ranked in the 90-100 range.

As for 2009 recruiting, sometimes I wonder if Mick wishes he hadn't recruited Danny McElroy. I think he was trying to make a statement in terms of getting Cincinnati's best high school player year after year..........and he did it with Yancy for the 2008 class and now it will be McElroy. Not sure McElroy will be considered the best player in Cincy next year, though. He seems to have fallen off the national radar somewhat. I guess if he plays in the national tournaments against better competition, the recruiting pundits will be able to gauge his stock and then we will know more.

Honestly, if Mike Williams gets an extra year, Aldridge gets his scholarship......then we will have 3 scholarships available for 2010. We will have 6 available for '11 if all the freshmen stay 4 years. And there's always that chance of Gates going pro early.McElroy's verbal is non binding (I think). If he's not BEAST capable, Mick has an out.

[Mick's Da Man]

McElroy's verbal is non binding (I think). If he's not BEAST capable, Mick has an out.


Good.

I will wait to reserve final judgement on him, but I haven't heard any ooh-ing and aw-ing over McElroy like you hear about Yancy Gates. McElroy reminds me of a Keith Gregor type player at this point. Probably a good role player but not much else. But he has time to prove me wrong.

I just think Mick has gotten the solid players so far, but he needs to up it a bit and nab a few higher impact players. Not sure McElroy fits the bill.

[Bearcat Revival]

McElroy might not be a great talent right now, but you can't have 13 TOP recruits. You need glue guys like Keith Gregor/Terry Nelson/Kenny Belton etc

And you're right, no verbal commitments are "binding"...only the LOIs.

[qsilvr2531]

Pulling scholarship offers after they've been extended and accepted isn't a very good idea normally and this is specially true with local talent. I highly doubt McElroy will get his offer pulled as long as he honors his commitment and stays out of trouble.

[levydl]

Good.

I will wait to reserve final judgement on him, but I haven't heard any ooh-ing and aw-ing over McElroy like you hear about Yancy Gates. McElroy reminds me of a Keith Gregor type player at this point. Probably a good role player but not much else. But he has time to prove me wrong.

I just think Mick has gotten the solid players so far, but he needs to up it a bit and nab a few higher impact players. Not sure McElroy fits the bill.

I'll reserve judgment too, but McElroy's a Lasalle boy, like Mick. He verballed when we were way down. No way he loses his offer. I hear he's a nice player too.

[dp3113]

i know for a fact kenyon was ranked 40 by one publication.


Lets not try to project too far ahead with scholarships. Guys can leave teh program, get in trouble, anything. If McClain puts it together, he will be gone before 4 years, Mick even said so himself. Same for Gates, if he gets his attitude and demeanor right, he will for sure be gone after 2-3 years.

[Scheids21]

I'll reserve judgment too, but McElroy's a Lasalle boy, like Mick. He verballed when we were way down. No way he loses his offer. I hear he's a nice player too.

mcelroy was signed when uc was at rock bottom. cronin was looking to sign anyone at that point. i saw mcelroy play against mcnick (a small and unimpressive team) and he ended with like 14 points and 9 rebounds. he did not stand out at all and those numbers are easy to come by at 6'7" (mcnicks tallest player is barely 6'4"). he also seemed very cocky about it and all i could think was "you cant dominate playing like that in the BEAST"

[levydl]

mcelroy was signed when uc was at rock bottom. cronin was looking to sign anyone at that point. i saw mcelroy play against mcnick (a small and unimpressive team) and he ended with like 14 points and 9 rebounds. he did not stand out at all and those numbers are easy to come by at 6'7" (mcnicks tallest player is barely 6'4"). he also seemed very cocky about it and all i could think was "you cant dominate playing like that in the BEAST"

He committed (verbally) in October of 2006 for the 2009-2010 season. Cronin was looking for anyone to sign for the 2006-2007 season, not anyone period. He ain't losing his offer. Bank on it.

[jeffto]

I believe Mick will honor the offer, but if the kid is facing 4 years of bench warming, I'm sure Mick will point out that he would be better off somewhere else. It could be a win/win. But if McElroy really wants to come to UC, he'll get his scholly.

[Irishbearcat]

I loved the old McElroy.

[ralph1950]

Mick Cronin is a LaSalle guy, McElroy is a LaSalle guy, Hep Cronin is an assistant coach, and former head coach, at LaSalle. LaSalle guys take care of LaSalle guys. McElroy will be a Bearcat and you can take that to the LaSalle Bank.

[BDIAS]

I have heard some really positive things regarding McElroy.

[Mick's Da Man]

If Mick is the recruiter he's rumored to be.......he will be bringing in some top talent in the next few years and McElroy most likely will be a bench warmer for most of his career. Heck, we've got 3 or 4 SF's right now in Bishop, Mitchell, Wilks and Aldridge. Not sure McElroy really fits in. He'd be waiting 'til his senior year to play with those guys ahead of him.

Then factor in Hopson and Mackey (3 guard option) and you see where things are possibly heading.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

If Mick is the recruiter he's rumored to be.......he will be bringing in some top talent in the next few years and McElroy most likely will be a bench warmer for most of his career. Heck, we've got 3 or 4 SF's right now in Bishop, Mitchell, Wilks and Aldridge. Not sure McElroy really fits in. He'd be waiting 'til his senior year to play with those guys ahead of him.

Then factor in Hopson and Mackey (3 guard option) and you see where things are possibly heading.

He is a superb recruiter. McElroy will play 4 in college (I think). Hopson unlikely to be at UC.

[Kindog202]

Danny will be a very solid player for the program. His numbers aren't phenomenal but that is due in large part to the constant double/triple teaming he is facing this year. Also, the GCL South is one of the best high school leagues in the country. It routinely beats higher nationally ranked teams throughout the year. Danny is averaging 15 and 7 as junior with hardly a supporting cast around him. No reason next year as a senior he can't average 18-20 pts per game and 8-10 rebounds per game. He only average 6pts and 5 boards last year and look how much his numbers have jumped. I have also heard that he has really matured since last year and that the coaching staff is proud of his progress.

Also, a name to remember for the future is freshman Brandon Neal. He is already playing up on varsity this year. He goes about 6'4, still needs to fill out physically and develop a jump shot but the coaching staff thinks he could be a good one. Will need to watch his progress over the next few years.

[Joe C.]

So I'm guessing that 1958 has a different book than Street and Smith's then. Its all about what publication, scout or service your read/subscribe to.

I seem to recall Kenyon was 25-50 as well in one service, but it was far from a consensus.

I was using this as a tangible example of where one national publication had him rated. You "seem to recall" him being in the top 25-50 is not evidence.

Also, it has nothing to do with 1958 "having a different book than Street & Smith's". There is never that kind of discrepancy between legit. publications as to where a player is ranked. One having him as a top 25 and another as a top 100 or higher?! That's ridiculous.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I was using this as a tangible example of where one national publication had him rated. You "seem to recall" him being in the top 25-50 is not evidence.

Also, it has nothing to do with 1958 "having a different book than Street & Smith's". There is never that kind of discrepancy between legit. publications as to where a player is ranked. One having him as a top 25 and another as a top 100 or higher?! That's ridiculous.

Gibbons (All-Star Sports), HoopScoop, PrepStars all had Martin in Top 25 to Top 50 range in 1996 rankings.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Completely inaccurate. He was a top 100 in most recruiting services. I still have the Street & Smith's at home that list him as an honorable mention nationally.

I just walked downstairs and got my (Bob Gibbons) list from 1996. All-Star Sports had him #26 in that class.

Checked PrepStars. #25 in the class. Finally HoopScoop. #56 in the class.

I've followed recruiting AVIDLY since 1965. I have UC and UK newspaper clippings on recruits back to the 1960's. I have Bob Gibbons stuff going back 30 years.

I get it wrong sometimes. But not THIS time. Sorry.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I agree. I dont remember Kenyon being that high either. I remember that KY was in the mix, but (obviously not that it matters) he wasn't ranked that high.

UC, Kentucky, and 2 schools in Texas were his Final 4. The recruiting analysts knew him but he wasn't named All-State in Texas (just All-District) and he wasn't named HS All-American by McDonalds or Parade.

I still have the newspaper clipping from his signing (committing to UC).

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I was using this as a tangible example of where one national publication had him rated. You "seem to recall" him being in the top 25-50 is not evidence.

Also, it has nothing to do with 1958 "having a different book than Street & Smith's". There is never that kind of discrepancy between legit. publications as to where a player is ranked. One having him as a top 25 and another as a top 100 or higher?! That's ridiculous.

Happens ALL the time. Look here http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/index.html for lots of examples 1998 through 2008 HS recruits, year by year.

[Joe C.]

I just walked downstairs and got my (Bob Gibbons) list from 1996. All-Star Sports had him #26 in that class.

Checked PrepStars. #25 in the class. Finally HoopScoop. #56 in the class.

I've followed recruiting AVIDLY since 1965. I have UC and UK newspaper clippings on recruits back to the 1960's. I have Bob Gibbons stuff going back 30 years.

I get it wrong sometimes. But not THIS time. Sorry.


No publication that I have, and I have asked several other people this question, has KM higher than #70. I am sure that you have followed recruiting avidly for a long, long, long, etc., time. You're an authority on the subject, I'm sure. But I too have avidly followed recruiting for a long time, as have several of my colleagues at UC, and no one other than you has him rated this high.
I have pulled a few publications that I have kept from 1995-96 - this includes Scout, Rivals, Street and Smith's, and Prep USA- and none of them have him rated higher than # 70. I have also queried this issue to several colleagues of mine in an effort to get some personal accounts, and NONE of them has any literature nor any recollection of KM being rated #25-50. Based on this information- hard-copies of publications, as well as personal accounts- you got this one wrong.
But all that matters is that he had a great career for UC, and we all enjoyed watching him play. Let's move on. :)

[Joe C.]

Happens ALL the time. Look here http://home.nc.rr.com/rsci/index.html for lots of examples 1998 through 2008 HS recruits, year by year.

These are rankings throughout the entire senior season and obviously these will fluctuate. This is not what I was alluding to. I said that there would not be a 50+ discrepency in player rankings between legit. publications, and I cannot find one example of this. Let's move on. :)

[Oldtimer_UC_fan]

If Mick is the recruiter he's rumored to be.......he will be bringing in some top talent in the next few years and McElroy most likely will be a bench warmer for most of his career. Heck, we've got 3 or 4 SF's right now in Bishop, Mitchell, Wilks and Aldridge. Not sure McElroy really fits in. He'd be waiting 'til his senior year to play with those guys ahead of him.

Then factor in Hopson and Mackey (3 guard option) and you see where things are possibly heading.

I think it's kind of jumping the gun to factor in Hopson and Mackey. It's extremely doubtful either will ever play a game for UC. As for McElroy, he's only a junior. Let's see how he looks next year as a senior before counting him out of anything.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

These are rankings throughout the entire senior season and obviously these will fluctuate. This is not what I was alluding to. I said that there would not be a 50+ discrepency in player rankings between legit. publications, and I cannot find one example of this. Let's move on. :)

Happens all the time. I'll give 1 recent example. Chris Lofton was rated #88 by Bob Gibbons. No one else had him much higher than Top 200 range. Gibbons was right on Lofton.

I've followed this avidly since 1965. I can give you 100's more examples if U wish.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

No publication that I have, and I have asked several other people this question, has KM higher than #70. I am sure that you have followed recruiting avidly for a long, long, long, etc., time. You're an authority on the subject, I'm sure. But I too have avidly followed recruiting for a long time, as have several of my colleagues at UC, and no one other than you has him rated this high.
I have pulled a few publications that I have kept from 1995-96 - this includes Scout, Rivals, Street and Smith's, and Prep USA- and none of them have him rated higher than # 70. I have also queried this issue to several colleagues of mine in an effort to get some personal accounts, and NONE of them has any literature nor any recollection of KM being rated #25-50. Based on this information- hard-copies of publications, as well as personal accounts- you got this one wrong.
But all that matters is that he had a great career for UC, and we all enjoyed watching him play. Let's move on. :)

Bob Gibbons is THE pre-eminent recruiting analyst EVER. Clark Francis has been prominent guru for last 25 years. Brick Oettinger of PrepStars for 30+ years.

Neither Scout nor Rivals even existed in 1996 so I doubt they had any ratings on K-Mart.

Sorry but I got this one right. I have the paper proof. Give me your address or fax # and I'll send U proof.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

(From HoopScoop, Clark Francis)

...a quick look back at the HOOP SCOOP's achieves shows that...recruiting class in 1996 was one of the best classes since we started keeping track 22 years ago...Cincinnati Class of 1996 (47 Points) with 6'8 Kenyon Martin from Dallas (Bryan Adams) TX, 6'8 Ruben Patterson from Independence (JC) KS, 6'4 D'Juan Baker from Midland (JC) TX, 6'9 Jermaine (?) Thomas from McLennan (JC) TX, 6'2 Charlie Williams from Chaffey (JC) CA, and 6'1 Johnny Carson from Springfield (South) OH...

Note - I think he meant Ohio St transfer Jermaine Tate for the (?) above.

[Mick's Da Man]

Never quote Hoop Scoop.

Clark Francis is the worst of the recruiting sites. I use to have a membership up until about 2 years ago, for a long time. He's an *****. He changes his recruiting rankings in the years following to make himself look good.

Quoting him puts you in the same category as him. He's terrible.

[Mick's Da Man]

I think it's kind of jumping the gun to factor in Hopson and Mackey. It's extremely doubtful either will ever play a game for UC. As for McElroy, he's only a junior. Let's see how he looks next year as a senior before counting him out of anything.


Notice I used the word possibly.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Never quote Hoop Scoop.

Clark Francis is the worst of the recruiting sites. I use to have a membership up until about 2 years ago, for a long time. He's an *****. He changes his recruiting rankings in the years following to make himself look good.

Quoting him puts you in the same category as him. He's terrible.

How about (Clipped from Enquirer article in Marcch 2000) then?

So far, so fast
Martin wasn't a top five, or even top 10 recruit out of high school. He was a raw talent. Strong on defense, where a player can get by on quickness and athleticism. But when it came to offense, where finesse is required, Martin's skills fell between few and none.

“Three years ago, we didn't guard him,” South Florida coach Seth Greenberg said. “He was self-checked.”

Martin scored 26 field goals that year — nine of them on dunks.

“He wasn't skilled at all,” Huggins said. “He was very athletic.”

This season, Martin proved he was a threat from 17 feet and in. He could go either way off the dribble.

“He typifies why it's a good decision to stay four years,” said Marty Blake, the NBA director of scouting. “He's matured physically, emotionally, and some people would say most importantly, he's made himself a lot of money. To me, that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is he'll get his degree.”

Martin's family saw it the same way. They placed his education and development as a player first.

“We're not a rich family,” Ms. Ridley said. “But money wasn't the issue.”

Start in Saginaw
Kenyon Lee Martin, was born Dec. 30, 1976, in Saginaw, Mich.

His father, Paul Roby, was a former basketball player at New Mexico. Kenyon remembers seeing his father only once.

“I was nine or 10,” Martin said. “It was for a few minutes.”

Ms. Moore knew a single mother raising two children in Michigan during a recession would not be easy.

“When the GM plant closes,” she said, “the small businesses close up, too.”

So Ms. Moore moved the family south to Dallas. She worked two jobs. Ms. Ridley who is 31/2 years older than Kenyon, was often left alone with her little brother.

“They were latchkey kids before anyone knew what latchkey kids were,” Ms. Moore said. “She was always very protective of him.”

Ms. Ridley was the first person Martin asked for after the injury. She rode in ambulance to the hospital with him Thursday.

Martin suffered from a stuttering problem as a child. He's overcome the problem, but it had a lasting effect.

“He wasn't so much shy as he had the problem with his stuttering,” Ms. Ridley said. “That made him a little withdrawn.”

Martin's refuge was sports. He played football, basketball and baseball as a child. When he was 10, his youth basketball team went to the world championships in Helsinki.

Diamond in rough
Martin grew up in football territory. He also attended three high schools in four years. But a player with his talent level gets noticed.

Connecticut, Kansas, Arizona, Kentucky, Syracuse all were interested. But UC came in early and went after Martin the hardest.

Former UC assistant coach John Loyer, who recruited Martin, never saw him play a high school game before UC signed him. Loyer was convinced after seeing Martin playing AAU ball before his senior year. Loyer was also sure Martin could handle things in the classroom.

“Kenyon's a bright guy,” said Loyer, now the head coach at Wabash Valley College. “He's a hard worker. And he's a really good guy.”

Moving from school to school, Martin didn't get a lot of help from his high school guidance people.

“No one put him in the right classes,” Loyer said. “He ended up taking 10th grade English as a 12th grader because he needed it for a core course.”

Some schools weren't willing to sign Martin, because they were unsure if he would qualify academically.

UC was willing and the gamble paid off.

Martin passed all the core courses and graduated from Bryan Adams High with his class.

But he needed a qualifying score on an SAT or ACT test to be eligible his freshman year at UC. So Martin enrolled part-time in 1996 at UC and kept taking the test in an effort to qualify by mid-season.

Through the fall of his freshman year at UC, Martin spent three days a week prepping for the SAT test from 10:30 a.m. to 2 p.m.

This was his toughest period. He was homesick and sick of studying.

He went back to Dallas at one point. Ms. Ridley was working two jobs and going to school at the time.

“I used myself as an example for him,” she said. “I had to work so hard to make ends meet. I said, "You have to strive for something. You have this opportunity.'”

Martin climbed back on a bus and headed back to Cincinnati.

He passed the test, making him eligible to play. That first season he won the team's academic award for his performance in the classroom.

[Joe C.]

Neither Scout nor Rivals even existed in 1996 so I doubt they had any ratings on K-Mart. .


What??? You obviously are not the guru that you think you are if you make a ridiculous statement such as this. We'll have to agree to disagree.
That effectively ends my partcipation in this thread. Peace be with you.

"Good Night Now!"

[Joe C.]

How about (Clipped from Enquirer article in Marcch 2000) then?

So far, so fast
Martin wasn't a top five, or even top 10 recruit out of high school. He was a raw talent. Strong on defense, where a player can get by on quickness and athleticism. But when it came to offense, where finesse is required, Martin's skills fell between few and none.

“Three years ago, we didn't guard him,” South Florida coach Seth Greenberg said. “He was self-checked.”

Martin scored 26 field goals that year — nine of them on dunks.

“He wasn't skilled at all,” Huggins said. “He was very athletic.”

This season, Martin proved he was a threat from 17 feet and in. He could go either way off the dribble.

“He typifies why it's a good decision to stay four years,” said Marty Blake, the NBA director of scouting. “He's matured physically, emotionally, and some people would say most importantly, he's made himself a lot of money. To me, that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is he'll get his degree.”

Martin's family saw it the same way. They placed his education and development as a player first.

“We're not a rich family,” Ms. Ridley said. “But money wasn't the issue.”

Start in Saginaw
Kenyon Lee Martin, was born Dec. 30, 1976, in Saginaw, Mich.

His father, Paul Roby, was a former basketball player at New Mexico. Kenyon remembers seeing his father only once.

“I was nine or 10,” Martin said. “It was for a few minutes.”

Ms. Moore knew a single mother raising two children in Michigan during a recession would not be easy.

“When the GM plant closes,” she said, “the small businesses close up, too.”

So Ms. Moore moved the family south to Dallas. She worked two jobs. Ms. Ridley who is 31/2 years older than Kenyon, was often left alone with her little brother.

“They were latchkey kids before anyone knew what latchkey kids were,” Ms. Moore said. “She was always very protective of him.”

Ms. Ridley was the first person Martin asked for after the injury. She rode in ambulance to the hospital with him Thursday.

Martin suffered from a stuttering problem as a child. He's overcome the problem, but it had a lasting effect.

“He wasn't so much shy as he had the problem with his stuttering,” Ms. Ridley said. “That made him a little withdrawn.”

Martin's refuge was sports. He played football, basketball and baseball as a child. When he was 10, his youth basketball team went to the world championships in Helsinki.

Diamond in rough
Martin grew up in football territory. He also attended three high schools in four years. But a player with his talent level gets noticed.

Connecticut, Kansas, Arizona, Kentucky, Syracuse all were interested. But UC came in early and went after Martin the hardest.

Former UC assistant coach John Loyer, who recruited Martin, never saw him play a high school game before UC signed him. Loyer was convinced after seeing Martin playing AAU ball before his senior year. Loyer was also sure Martin could handle things in the classroom.

“Kenyon's a bright guy,” said Loyer, now the head coach at Wabash Valley College. “He's a hard worker. And he's a really good guy.”

Moving from school to school, Martin didn't get a lot of help from his high school guidance people.

“No one put him in the right classes,” Loyer said. “He ended up taking 10th grade English as a 12th grader because he needed it for a core course.”

Some schools weren't willing to sign Martin, because they were unsure if he would qualify academically.

UC was willing and the gamble paid off.

Martin passed all the core courses and graduated from Bryan Adams High with his class.

But he needed a qualifying score on an SAT or ACT test to be eligible his freshman year at UC. So Martin enrolled part-time in 1996 at UC and kept taking the test in an effort to qualify by mid-season.

Through the fall of his freshman year at UC, Martin spent three days a week prepping for the SAT test from 10:30 a.m. to 2 p.m.

This was his toughest period. He was homesick and sick of studying.

He went back to Dallas at one point. Ms. Ridley was working two jobs and going to school at the time.

“I used myself as an example for him,” she said. “I had to work so hard to make ends meet. I said, "You have to strive for something. You have this opportunity.'”

Martin climbed back on a bus and headed back to Cincinnati.

He passed the test, making him eligible to play. That first season he won the team's academic award for his performance in the classroom.

I have the same article at home.
But what does this prove??? Nothing re: my posts.

"Good Night Now!"

[Joe C.]

Happens all the time. I'll give 1 recent example. Chris Lofton was rated #88 by Bob Gibbons. No one else had him much higher than Top 200 range. Gibbons was right on Lofton.

I've followed this avidly since 1965. I can give you 100's more examples if U wish.

Notice that I said LEGITIMATE services.
My Uncle Richard (****) has his own ratings every year, but I don't see any coaches calling him for the latest scoop on players.

"Good Night Now!"

[Catmandu]

What??? You obviously are not the guru that you think you are if you make a ridiculous statement such as this. We'll have to agree to disagree.
That effectively ends my partcipation in this thread. Peace be with you.

"Good Night Now!"


Maybe you should look up info before you call out a Guru.... it's not that difficult and it might keep YOU from making "ridiculous statement such as this"
and now you don't have to agree to disagree, you can Just agree with him :)

Scout:
"Company founder Jim Heckman invented the national college recruiting database in 1998 and evolved what once was considered a “cult” business into a college sports network respected by college football scouts, fans and teams throughout the nation."
http://www.scout.com/3/company.html

Rivals:
"Rivals.com has been serving serious sports fans since May 2001." http://www.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=36178

Sooo, I guess you couldn't have checked what they rated Martin, right?

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

What??? You obviously are not the guru that you think you are if you make a ridiculous statement such as this. We'll have to agree to disagree.
That effectively ends my partcipation in this thread. Peace be with you.

"Good Night Now!"

Neither existed in 1996. Both were Internet Spawn in the late 1990's. Dave Telep worked for PrepStars then. Jerry Meyer was a basketball coach then.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Notice that I said LEGITIMATE services.
My Uncle Richard (****) has his own ratings every year, but I don't see any coaches calling him for the latest scoop on players.

"Good Night Now!"

Bob Gibbons (All-Star Sports, now ESPN) is THE #1 recruiting analyst for 30 years.

U have no clue, do U?

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Maybe you should look up info before you call out a Guru.... it's not that difficult and it might keep YOU from making "ridiculous statement such as this"
and now you don't have to agree to disagree, you can Just agree with him :)

Scout:
"Company founder Jim Heckman invented the national college recruiting database in 1998 and evolved what once was considered a “cult” business into a college sports network respected by college football scouts, fans and teams throughout the nation."
http://www.scout.com/3/company.html

Rivals:
"Rivals.com has been serving serious sports fans since May 2001." http://www.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=36178

Sooo, I guess you couldn't have checked what they rated Martin, right?

Excellent. I believe they call that a Facial!!!

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I have the same article at home.
But what does this prove??? Nothing re: my posts.

"Good Night Now!"

It proves U have no clue whatsover?

[Catmandu]

Excellent. I believe they call that a Facial!!!

LOL You owe me one now! ;)

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

LOL You owe me one now! ;)

Thanks for the assist. You get a point for that in Hockey.

[Joe C.]

Excellent. I believe they call that a Facial!!!


Both of you - NOT THE WEB SITES, THESE ARE PUBLICATIONS!!
Are you 2 drinking each other's kool aid??

[Joe C.]

Excellent. I believe they call that a Facial!!!

No way he was top 25-50. Top 100...maybe. Remember how everyone thought Jason Collier was going to be so much better?

This is Mike Decourcy's response when I emailed him this question...I guess he's not on your level though.
The responses between the 2 of you are comical.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Both of you - NOT THE WEB SITES, THESE ARE PUBLICATIONS!!
Are you 2 drinking each other's kool aid??

Bob Gibbons, All-Star Sports. THE best recruiting analyst of last 30 years.

Clark Francis, HoopScoop. Prominent recruiting analyst of last 25 years.

Brick Oettinger, Prep Stars. Prominent recruiting analyst of last 30 years.

Facts.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

No way he was top 25-50. Top 100...maybe. Remember how everyone thought Jason Collier was going to be so much better?

This is Mike Decourcy's response when I emailed him this question...I guess he's not on your level though.
The responses between the 2 of you are comical.

Decourcy is a completely, utterly WRONG. He has no clue. Are U related?

[jeffto]

I think this thread belongs in he trash can, no, I mean Where Are They Now

[Catmandu]

I think this thread belongs in he trash can, no, I mean Where Are They Now

Why because your mistakes keep getting pointed out?

[jeffto]

Why because your mistakes keep getting pointed out?I haven't even posted on this subject. A stupid discussion about a former player's HS ranking does not belong on a BBall forum.

Why don't you post something about the 2009 class? That's the topic.

[Catmandu]

Both of you - NOT THE WEB SITES, THESE ARE PUBLICATIONS!!
Are you 2 drinking each other's kool aid??

We drink the same Kool Aid , I think on the outside of the mix it just says "Facts- Cherry Flavor". It actually makes me laugh, how some actually bring facts, and LINKS to those facts, and all you have is your kool aid comments. Where's a link that talks about these "Publications" you are talking about. I truly would like to be "Corrected" if I'm wrong but your comments really don't point to it, and on the contrary, every LINK I've provided and ALL internet information(which I've provided) says I'm Not wrong. Sooooo. If you would like some Facts, come have a glass of our "kool Aid" and learn a little from the Facts below.


SCOUT
BOTH the website AND the publications were founded in 2001
http://www.newscorp.com/news/news_253.html
"Launched in 2001 and backed by former NFL quarterback Bernie Kosar, his brother Brian and their investment company, Kosar Investments LLC, Scout Media’s network of more than 200 local, team-focused websites and 47 publications deliver exclusive content focusing on professional, college and high school team sports from some of the most seasoned sports reporters in the country."

Rivals.com There is NO information on the entire internet with a date prior to this info about "Rivals" there is NO mention on the entire internet of a "rivals" publication.
"August 15, 2001
Company officially changes its name and website marks to Rivals.com.


August 1, 2001

Company launches recruiting database v1.0. For the first time in the industry, scholarship offers to recruits are tracked.


June 8, 2001

Company attracts and signs licensing agreements with more than 80-percent of top 100+ Rivals.com publishers. Among the leading publications: TheWolverine.com, Orangebloods.com, GatorBait.net, HuskersIllustrated.com, Websider.com, TigerBait.com, UGASports.com, BlueWhiteIllustrated.com, PowerMizzou.com, USCFootball.com, AuburnSports.com, BamaOnLine.com, TerrapinTimes.com, EagleAction.com, VolQuest.com, SoonerScoop.com, GoPowercat.com, GoldandBlack.com, CaneSport.com, SpartanMag.com, CatsPause.com, TheWolfpacker.com, TigerIllustrated.com, WVSports.com.


May 13, 2001

Company purchases the assets of Rival Networks. The Seattle-based internet start-up burned through more than 75-million dollars in venture capital funding during the dotcom bust. The assets were available through a forced liquidation.


May 1, 2001

Parent company JBS Sports, led by Shannon Terry, is formed and launches AllianceSports.com, a nationwide network of college and high school sports online publications, based primarily on the subscription-revenue model. Terry and CTO Greg Gough had owned and operated the initial iteration of AllianceSports.com, a regionally-focused college sports website, from 1996 before selling to Rivals Networks, Inc., in 2000.

I truly would love to make sure I'm correct so please provide me some solid information other than the email you got from decourcey (Which you still didn't post o quote) or your opinion that you THINK it started before then, surely you have acopy of one of these publications because you told us you "looked it up" I'd love to see a copy, I'd never heard tha Rivals did a publication, and everything I've seen says "Scout Publishing" wasn't around when you say it was.

I don't want these "facts" to get in the way of the truth, so can you provide me your fats so I can know the "truth"?

I really can't believe that you would even continue your point when there is so much out there to the contrary.... You must have something that makes you believe so strongly, I'm interested in seeing it.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

U R absolutely correct. Neither Rivals nor Scout existed B4 late 90's or early 2K's. Both are Internet spawn from then. Not in any form or fashion.

[Joe C.]

We drink the same Kool Aid , I think on the outside of the mix it just says "Facts- Cherry Flavor". It actually makes me laugh, how some actually bring facts, and LINKS to those facts, and all you have is your kool aid comments. Where's a link that talks about these "Publications" you are talking about. I truly would like to be "Corrected" if I'm wrong but your comments really don't point to it, and on the contrary, every LINK I've provided and ALL internet information(which I've provided) says I'm Not wrong. Sooooo. If you would like some Facts, come have a glass of our "kool Aid" and learn a little from the Facts below.


SCOUT
BOTH the website AND the publications were founded in 2001
http://www.newscorp.com/news/news_253.html


Rivals.com There is NO information on the entire internet with a date prior to this info about "Rivals" there is NO mention on the entire internet of a "rivals" publication.


I truly would love to make sure I'm correct so please provide me some solid information other than the email you got from decourcey (Which you still didn't post o quote) or your opinion that you THINK it started before then, surely you have acopy of one of these publications because you told us you "looked it up" I'd love to see a copy, I'd never heard tha Rivals did a publication, and everything I've seen says "Scout Publishing" wasn't around when you say it was.

I don't want these "facts" to get in the way of the truth, so can you provide me your fats so I can know the "truth"?

I really can't believe that you would even continue your point when there is so much out there to the contrary.... You must have something that makes you believe so strongly, I'm interested in seeing it.

So let me get this straight- Because you and 1958 haven't heard of something, that means it is untrue??
Who do you guys think you are??? I have a direct quote from a national writer on this subject and you call him "clueless".
Go back and re-read my posts. You and 1958 are riding each other so hard that you're trying to drown me out b/c I disagree with you. You are twisting words and using your own personal opinions as facts. I'm done with the two of you on this subject. I've let you 2 dorks drag me down to this level of inane argument. You should roll over and kiss each other b/c this thread is all yours.

[Oldtimer_UC_fan]

So let me get this straight- Because you and 1958 haven't heard of something, that means it is untrue??
Who do you guys think you are??? I have a direct quote from a national writer on this subject and you call him "clueless".
Go back and re-read my posts. You and 1958 are riding each other so hard that you're trying to drown me out b/c I disagree with you. You are twisting words and using your own personal opinions as facts. I'm done with the two of you on this subject. I've let you 2 dorks drag me down to this level of inane argument. You should roll over and kiss each other b/c this thread is all yours.


Children, please....grow up.

[Mick's Da Man]

You should roll over and kiss each other b/c this thread is all yours.


....I think 1958 and Catmandu need to get a room. All of their romancing of eachother is making me sick. Please take it elsewhere.



Clark Francis is respected? BWAHAAAAA! His publication isn't referred to as POOP SCOOP for nothing.

Mike DeCourcey is the most respected college basketball and recruiting analyst next to Bob Gibbons, hands down.

This thread is crap. 1958 and Catmandu made it crap. What's new.

[jeffto]

....I think 1958 and Catmandu need to get a room. All of their romancing of eachother is making me sick. Please take it elsewhere.



Clark Francis is respected? BWAHAAAAA! His publication isn't referred to as POOP SCOOP for nothing.

Mike DeCourcey is the most respected college basketball and recruiting analyst next to Bob Gibbons, hands down.

This thread is crap. 1958 and Catmandu made it crap. What's new.Man Crush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Catmandu]

I haven't even posted on this subject. A stupid discussion about a former player's HS ranking does not belong on a BBall forum.

Why don't you post something about the 2009 class? That's the topic.

You are right, I am wrong, I was thinking you were "Joe C" you two kind of post the same type of stuff....

[Catmandu]

So let me get this straight- Because you and 1958 haven't heard of something, that means it is untrue??
Who do you guys think you are??? I have a direct quote from a national writer on this subject and you call him "clueless".
Go back and re-read my posts. You and 1958 are riding each other so hard that you're trying to drown me out b/c I disagree with you. You are twisting words and using your own personal opinions as facts. I'm done with the two of you on this subject. I've let you 2 dorks drag me down to this level of inane argument. You should roll over and kiss each other b/c this thread is all yours.


Not at all, I personally haven't heard of alot of things...
BUT...
The fact that you don't have any references, and there are NO references to what you say (IE you looked at the rankings of Martin in Scout and Rivals and that they even existed then)anywhere on the internet

I tend to doubt it. I don't think that's a far stretch.

In addition, I even asked for you to "educate" me and point me in the direction of your information, which you were unable to do,
Heck, I see you live in Norwood, I probably live about 5 minutes from you I would love to come over and talk basketball and you can show me you Scout and Rivals Publications from 1996 rating Martin, if you want we can meet at mulligans, drive back to my house I'll scan them in and post the PDF's here for all to see that you were right.

I haven't seen your "direct quote" from a "National writer"... and frankly you could type anything you want and say it was a Quote from a national writer. I'll stick with the three reputible referenced here, and more importantly my direct memory of watching the Bearcats then.

I'm just saying,...
Just because you say it here, doesn't mean it's true either... and the facts don't come close to backing your point. You've been offered opportunity after opportunity to educate me(us) and haven't ome up with anything...

What's a logical person supposed to think?
"If it doesn't fit you must Acquit"

[Catmandu]

Man Crush!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

58 and I have disagreed MANY times over the years on here. As a matter of fact one time I even had emails from Mike, Keith and Jon B. telling me he was cool and knew what he was talking about to cool one of our many debates.

After a while, when I read his post I saw that pretty much 99% of the time he backed it with a fact, or reference from where he formed his point.

Over the years I began to realize he is truly a trusted source.

Some others here, in this discussion don't back their opinions with facts, and state their "Opinions" as fact, when they are really just their Opnions.

Opinions are great and fine, and no one has to Prove why they have an Opinion, or even say anything to back it up because it's just an Opinion.

It's when people start stating opinions as "Facts" that naturally those with contradictory real "Facts"(not "opinions" put out as facts) backed by references, links etc that you will hear others come out and try to set the "Facts" straight.

It's really pretty simple... it's pretty much been going on like that for years...
like since long before 1996 ... you do know that his group has been together since BEFORE scouts and rivals don't you?

"Just the facts ma'am"

[Catmandu]

....I think 1958 and Catmandu need to get a room. All of their romancing of eachother is making me sick. Please take it elsewhere.



Clark Francis is respected? BWAHAAAAA! His publication isn't referred to as POOP SCOOP for nothing.

Mike DeCourcey is the most respected college basketball and recruiting analyst next to Bob Gibbons, hands down.

This thread is crap. 1958 and Catmandu made it crap. What's new.

So don't read it.

And How did "We" make it crap by finding factual information?

If you'd rather read fiction, then fine, anyone can make stuff up.

I don't want any fact to get in the way of your fantasy.

[Mick's Da Man]

So don't read it.

And How did "We" make it crap by finding factual information?

If you'd rather read fiction, then fine, anyone can make stuff up.

I don't want any fact to get in the way of your fantasy.

Why don't you take jeffto's response and get a clue what this topic was about before you tainted it with crap.

Why don't you post something about the 2009 class? That's the topic.

[Catmandu]

Completely inaccurate. He was a top 100 in most recruiting services. I still have the Street & Smith's at home that list him as an honorable mention nationally.

Mick Da Man,

This is the post that started the "Crap"

I like to call it "Debate" but you call it what you want.

It had nothing to do with me. 58 stated a fact, someone started debating it, then they started staing some crazy stuff like they check their Rivals and Scout from 1996... etc... I won't take the blame :)

"I don't start debates I just finish them" :p

AND it does relate to the Class of 2009 because we are talking about how former player rankings coincide with their performance and relating it to similarly rated recruits and their potential. Not that hard to follow.

Please don't tell me what to do. I don't tell you what to do, do I?

[jeffto]

Sorry, Dan, but you're wrong once more. This is the post that got the thread off-topic.
Douglas-Roberts was very highly regarded. Kentucky and Mich St both were after him.

I'd again caution putting too much (or any) value in Who Lists Who or Who's Top 75 or anything like that.

Van Exel, Blount, Herb Jones, Logan, none were in Top 75 lists in HS.

This was the very next thread:
Kenyon Martin was Top 25 to 50 rated. UC and Kentucky were 2 of his final 4 schools.

Just like Jason Maxiell. Top 25 to 50. UC and Kentucky were his final 2. These were the 5th and 6th posts in this topic. You sure you can read?

[MikeInClifton]

Done. . . . . .