Mackey-Burton

[jeffto]

Darnell just got 7 years on the same offense Bud is facing. It's a shame for Darnell and an indication how serious the crime is in Ky.

The whole drug sub-culture is just killing young, black males. And university sports programs are not helping. They exploit the 95% who aren't going to be professionals, hand a few of them a nearly useless piece of paper and send them back out there to that world. There are exceptions (Stokes) but the fact that they seem to always get press coverage shows how few there are.

I don't know what it is, but we who support college athletics and the colleges themselves need to do something to give these kids a better chance in life.

[jplog]

A chance at a free college education is a great shot at a better life. What you do with that chance and the life you can create with it is totally up to the individual. Burton was always one of my favorite Bearcats but he made the choices in his life the led him to this situation. Also, please spare us the "millions of dollars made by universities on the backs of the college atheletes" arguement. Anyone who has ever gone to college knows atheletes are given every opportunity to suceed in the classroom as well as the playing field.

[jeffto]

A chance at a free college education is a great shot at a better life. What you do with that chance and the life you can create with it is totally up to the individual. Burton was always one of my favorite Bearcats but he made the choices in his life the led him to this situation. Also, please spare us the "millions of dollars made by universities on the backs of the college atheletes" arguement. Anyone who has ever gone to college knows atheletes are given every opportunity to suceed in the classroom as well as the playing field.Oh come on. An education is the lowest priority the colleges have for these kids. "Making Grades" in a phys. ed. or criminal justice major is not an education.

You need to watch The Wire and then tell me about choices. My point is that the whole young, black male culture is a God-awful mess. There are more black males in prison then there are in college. Their odds of success are very bleak. And, yes, a college degree improves their odds somewhat, but I think the system owes them a bit more than a worthless piece of paper (and a high percentage don't even get that).

[YouGuessedItFrankStallone]

Oh come on. An education is the lowest priority the colleges have for these kids. "Making Grades" in a phys. ed. or criminal justice major is not an education.

You need to watch The Wire and then tell me about choices. My point is that the whole young, black male culture is a God-awful mess. There are more black males in prison then there are in college. Their odds of success are very bleak. And, yes, a college degree improves their odds somewhat, but I think the system owes them a bit more than a worthless piece of paper (and a high percentage don't even get that).

If you're saying that student athletes should be paid, I might agree with you.

If you're saying it's the university's job to hold the kid's hand and make sure he goes to class, then I think you're wrong. College is supposed to prepare you for real life, and in real life you need to be self-reliant.

[ME80]

If you're saying that student athletes should be paid, I might agree with you.

If you're saying it's the university's job to hold the kid's hand and make sure he goes to class, then I think you're wrong. College is supposed to prepare you for real life, and in real life you need to be self-reliant.

they are being paid; free food, free housing, free education, free books.

[Bearcat Cafe]

blah blah blah.

Life is about decisions. Darnell made one knowing the consequences ahead of time. Tough cookies. I don't feel bad at all for him.

If he wasn't a former player, nobody on this board would give a rat's rear end.

[TheLivingLegend]

If you're saying that student athletes should be paid, I might agree with you.

If you're saying it's the university's job to hold the kid's hand and make sure he goes to class, then I think you're wrong. College is supposed to prepare you for real life, and in real life you need to be self-reliant.



Paid players!? are you kidding me, what a joke... Players are givin the opportunity to suceed on and off the court, not to mention free tution, housing, food... Why should I have to pay for them, more then we already do? As far as im concerned they should be paying just like everyone else.

[jplog]

You need to watch The Wire and then tell me about choices. My point is that the whole young, black male culture is a God-awful mess. There are more black males in prison then there are in college. Their odds of success are very bleak. And, yes, a college degree improves their odds somewhat, but I think the system owes them a bit more than a worthless piece of paper (and a high percentage don't even get that).

I got news for you, no one "owes" you anything in this life. Millions of people live respectable, honest lives WITHOUT a college degree. Anyone given an opportunity to earn a college degree for free is one lucky person. This sense of entitlement that some people have these days is just leading them to an awful moment when they realize everyone has to work for almost everything in life. Maybe when people, such as yourself, stop making excuses for people, like Darnell, reality will have a chance to sink in.

[james jr]

Paid players!? are you kidding me, what a joke... Players are givin the opportunity to suceed on and off the court, not to mention free tution, housing, food... Why should I have to pay for them, more then we already do? As far as im concerned they should be paying just like everyone else.

The revenue that a top college athlete in a premier money sport brings in far outweighs the tuition revenue from a paid student. I am not saying that they should be coddled, but, the university owes them a greater support system than the student who is not really making the school any money! Whether that support comes in the form of money or tutors or monitors/mentors is debatable but they are not the same as other students.

[611116]

It's a shame that we can't have an open-door policy for the athletes that came through UC, and didn't work out their problems after that. I wouldn't mind AT ALL letting someone like Darnell come back to UC, earn a more useful degree, get a job, and have a better life. He certainly added some joy to the University experience for basketball fans during his stay at the University..

Same goes for someone like James Brooks--graduated from Auburn as an illiterate...obviously the ball was dropped in his case--why not let him come back to school free of charge and earn a degree and get a job?

Reform before Rebuke....(Anonymous)

[bearcat25]

Whether that support comes in the form of money or tutors or monitors/mentors is debatable but they are not the same as other students.

As a former UC student-athlete, we were given every opportunity to succeed in the class room. Tutors/mentors were offered to us for free. Try to get that as a regular student....not going to happen. Normal students typically had to hire tutors.

As others have mentioned, the individual student dictates their direction in life. What more should someone ask for....free education, room/board, food, tutoring, academic advice. In addition, many of the low income student-athletes are awared Pell grants to cover school clothing, food, and essentials. If anything, I was treated unfairly because I only received a partial scholarship, no room/board, or Pell Grant. However, I made the most of what I had and am not leading a very successful life.

These guys are smart enough to know selling drugs is not the smart way of life. It doesn't take additional money from the university to correct that problem!

[jplog]

And don't forget alot of the money that the major sports bring into a university are used to support other sports, men's and women's, that bring in little or nothing. That gives even more student atheletes an opportunity to get a degree.

[vabearcat]

Are you guys talking about Darnell Burton? He just got 7 years on a drug-related conviction? Did I miss something? If true, this makes me feel very bad for the this young man and the opportunity he may have squandered. As a 4-year player under Huggs, I am disappointed if he didn't learn to be a man after the 4 years of tough love under Huggy.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

This is the reason why Kentucky did not even pursue him in 1993.

[611116]

However, I made the most of what I had and am not leading a very successful life.

Misquote?

did you mean to say "am now leading a very successful life"?

[jeffto]

Well EXCUSE me. I'd forgotten what a hot bed of racism and ultra right conservative ideals Cincinnati fosters.

I'm sure you're all successful. You're probably even responsible for hiring decisions. Did you know that it's harder for a young black male with no criminal record to get a job than it is for a white male just out of prison.

If it were a level playing field I would agree that these kids should know that selling drugs is not a smart way of life. It is no where near a level playing field. Selling drugs to your kids is frequently the only option.

I suspect that Ayn Rand's objectivism is the guiding principle for many of you.

[Cincinnatisportsfanatic]

Jeffto i see you are very passionate about this subject. Can i ask you ahat you are doing to help out this situation? Outside this post... I do agree with you about it being harder to get a job as a black male. But the problem I tend to notice is more the upbringing of the black youth. Sure some things point to fifty years ago when it was illegal for an african american to get an education. But things are getting better... Not perfect but better

[jplog]

Please don't try to tell us that Darnell Burton's only option was selling drugs to make a living. That's an easy excuse just like selling drugs is the easy way to make money.

[lt7784]

I see what Jeff is saying about black youth, and I agree for the most part.

I just don't see what else a university should/can do.

[gyoung]

In response to Jeffto's statement about black men in prison and in college: There are approximately 180,000 black males in prison aged 18-24 and approximately 300,000 total. There are approximately 450,000+ black males in college.

[lt7784]

In response to Jeffto's statement about black men in prison and in college: There are approximately 180,000 black males in prison aged 18-24 and approximately 300,000 total. There are approximately 450,000+ black males in college.

Source? Those numbers seem very low.

[slimm]

Well EXCUSE me. I'd forgotten what a hot bed of racism and ultra right conservative ideals Cincinnati fosters.

I'm sure you're all successful. You're probably even responsible for hiring decisions. Did you know that it's harder for a young black male with no criminal record to get a job than it is for a white male just out of prison.

If it were a level playing field I would agree that these kids should know that selling drugs is not a smart way of life. It is no where near a level playing field. Selling drugs to your kids is frequently the only option.

I suspect that Ayn Rand's objectivism is the guiding principle for many of you.

What a joke.
________
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[SLMadiCat]

It's a shame that we can't have an open-door policy for the athletes that came through UC, and didn't work out their problems after that. I wouldn't mind AT ALL letting someone like Darnell come back to UC, earn a more useful degree, get a job, and have a better life. He certainly added some joy to the University experience for basketball fans during his stay at the University..

Same goes for someone like James Brooks--graduated from Auburn as an illiterate...obviously the ball was dropped in his case--why not let him come back to school free of charge and earn a degree and get a job?

Reform before Rebuke....(Anonymous)

So should this be for every UC grad, or just basketball players? Why should Darnell be given preferential treatment over some other non-athletes who have been going through the same problems?

[gyoung]

Source? Those numbers seem very low.

Here is one link.

http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000079.html

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

It's a shame that we can't have an open-door policy for the athletes that came through UC, and didn't work out their problems after that. I wouldn't mind AT ALL letting someone like Darnell come back to UC, earn a more useful degree, get a job, and have a better life. He certainly added some joy to the University experience for basketball fans during his stay at the University..

Same goes for someone like James Brooks--graduated from Auburn as an illiterate...obviously the ball was dropped in his case--why not let him come back to school free of charge and earn a degree and get a job?

Reform before Rebuke....(Anonymous)

UC has such a program for Bearcat athletes. (Among others) Nicky Van Exel donated $1 million (back in th e1990's) to get the program started. Dozens of ex-Bearcat athletes have graduated (years after their eligibility was over) from the program.

[Corporateballa]

I served on the board of a faith based organization called CityCure for 5 year. Our vision was (is) "Changing the cycle of dispare one life at a time". Primary constituants were Over-the-Rhine residents. The number one problem facing urban communities in the US is drugs...hands down. If the drugs would go away, violence would almost completely dry up.

It becomes exploitation when a kid is allowed to enroll and compete athleticly when he is not prepared/equipped to be successful in a college academic setting. When a kid is allowed to play for four years and is no where close to earning a degree. Then that kids was pimped. The deal is athletic services in exchange for an education. If for example Deonta Vaughn would have no chance to be accepted into UC as typical matriculating student, then he should not be allowed in as a scholarship athlete (that's just an example). The University got rid of "U-college", which had been a holding pattern for academicly ill-equipped athletes for years. Now all students must get accepted into 4-year programs upon admission.

The University of Cincinnati helped prepare and launch me into a very successful life. It also taught me compassion and tollerance. The question is, if the posters on this forum had grown up in the same family, in the same community as Bud Macky or Darnell Burton, would they make the same decisions? It's not as simple as telling a kid from an impoverished, fatherless environment to "make good choices"...I wish it where. I'm not saying that there is no individual accountability, but I am saying that it is a complex dynamic situation that requires our best thinking in order to identify solutions.

Ok Kieth - now you can shut down this discussion :-)

[lt7784]

Well put, balla.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I served on the board of a faith based organization called CityCure for 5 year. Our vision was (is) "Changing the cycle of dispare one life at a time". Primary constituants were Over-the-Rhine residents. The number one problem facing urban communities in the US is drugs...hands down. If the drugs would go away, violence would almost completely dry up.

It becomes exploitation when a kid is allowed to enroll and compete athleticly when he is not prepared/equipped to be successful in a college academic setting. When a kid is allowed to play for four years and is no where close to earning a degree. Then that kids was pimped. The deal is athletic services in exchange for an education. If for example Deonta Vaughn would have no chance to be accepted into UC as typical matriculating student, then he should not be allowed in as a scholarship athlete (that's just an example). The University got rid of "U-college", which had been a holding pattern for academicly ill-equipped athletes for years. Now all students must get accepted into 4-year programs upon admission.

The University of Cincinnati helped prepare and launch me into a very successful life. It also taught me compassion and tollerance. The question is, if the posters on this forum had grown up in the same family, in the same community as Bud Macky or Darnell Burton, would they make the same decisions? It's not as simple as telling a kid from an impoverished, fatherless environment to "make good choices"...I wish it where. I'm not saying that there is no individual accountability, but I am saying that it is a complex dynamic situation that requires our best thinking in order to identify solutions.

Ok Kieth - now you can shut down this discussion :-)


The Emanuel Center in OTR has a strong, positive influence in kids growing up in a really tough environment.

I worked 6 summers (1969 thru 74) in OTR area - Husman's on Moore St. It was tolerable then. I'd guess it's not so tolerable now.

My grandchildren are African-American but they are growing up in a very different environment (SLC suburbs in Utah) than most. The 7 year old twins were adopted. They were born into the kind of environment you described.

[611116]

UC has such a program for Bearcat athletes. (Among others) Nicky Van Exel donated $1 million (back in th e1990's) to get the program started. Dozens of ex-Bearcat athletes have graduated (years after their eligibility was over) from the program.

I'm glad to hear that...hope Darnell takes advantage. It might help out those individuals who were mined for their talent and either misused, or were misused during their stay at UC.

The University makes a lot of money off revenue sports (way more per kid than they spend in scholarship money), and this would be a small way to pay back...I would also assume that a lot of athletes that take advantage of such a program donate back to it once they get on their feet.

Sounds like a good idea to me...

Was that what Mel Levett did? I know he graduated after his eligibility was up.

Also, shouldn't that change the numbers of graduates during Bob's tenure? If the kid comes back and graduates, they should credit that back in the grad rates...

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I'm glad to hear that...hope Darnell takes advantage. It might help out those individuals who were mined for their talent and either misused, or were misused during their stay at UC.

The University makes a lot of money off revenue sports (way more per kid than they spend in scholarship money), and this would be a small way to pay back...I would also assume that a lot of athletes that take advantage of such a program donate back to it once they get on their feet.

Sounds like a good idea to me...

Was that what Mel Levett did? I know he graduated after his eligibility was up.

Also, shouldn't that change the numbers of graduates during Bob's tenure? If the kid comes back and graduates, they should credit that back in the grad rates...

Yes, Melvin Levett. D'Juan Baker. Several others recently came back to Uc to finish their degrees.

They don't the grad rates retrotactively. About 35 UC players from 1990 thru 2005 have UC (4-yr) degrees but the NCAA counts fewer than half of them. Roughly 40% of UC lettermen in that (16-yr) timeframe. UC students OVERALL grad rates is about 50% or so.

Michael Jordan has a (4-yr) degree from UNC but NCAA doesn't recognize it because it was earned way beyond 6 years after he started.

[Catmandu]

If the drugs would go away, violence would almost completely dry up.


Unfortunatly they won't Go away.

I say "Legalize", governmentize it and take away the profits from "dealing"

It's the same thing that happened in prohibition, when the outlawed it everyone became outlaws. Then they legalized it again and all those outlaws go put out of business.

Drugs will not go away(just like liqour didn'ts and illegal abortions didn't), they should be controlled. If some of the "gateway" drugs as people like to call them were not illegal alot of people wouldn't go to the harder illegal drugs.

The way it is now they figure hey, if I Pot is illegal might as well take a risk on something that's stronger and has the same legal risks.


But hey... what do I know I'm just some hippee... ;)

NOW you can close this thread LOL ;)

[YouGuessedItFrankStallone]

Well EXCUSE me. I'd forgotten what a hot bed of racism and ultra right conservative ideals Cincinnati fosters.

I'm sure you're all successful. You're probably even responsible for hiring decisions. Did you know that it's harder for a young black male with no criminal record to get a job than it is for a white male just out of prison.

If it were a level playing field I would agree that these kids should know that selling drugs is not a smart way of life. It is no where near a level playing field. Selling drugs to your kids is frequently the only option.

I suspect that Ayn Rand's objectivism is the guiding principle for many of you.

Pretty sad that we've come to the point in the nation that people are attacked as racists simply for advocating personal responsibility.

Communism can't be too far around the corner...

[Corporateballa]

...I don't know about that one - LOL!. There are less controversial ways to make an impact. I'm more in favor of grass-roots impact, and less in favor of government action.

I look at a guy like Yancy. He has been very blessed to have been adopted into a family that has supported his development as a person and an athlete. He is a great kid. Very few are so fortunate. I have been mentoring a kid who is a senior at Woodward since he was in the 8th grade. He earned a D1 basketball skolly against all odds. He has been in foster care his entire life. He got adopted as a teen (almost unheard of) by a couple in their late 70s. They have never seen him play. His nutrition s horrible. I took him to Longhorn steakhouse, and he didn't know how to eat a steak because he had never had one!!!

Last night at parents night was a sad affair. Cheerleader, basketball team, wrestling team...let's just say there were few parents present and only 1 or 2 dads. I don't know Burton or Mackey, but the off field/court behavior of guys who come from neighborhoods and families like many that I have seen is predictable.

Expecting Dontonio Wingfield or Chris Henry to be responsible citizens just because they are great athletes is no more reasonable than expecting a guy who looks at internet porn every day and goes to strip clubs to be faithful to his wife - it predictably is not going to happen. Let's be less judgemental and make a commitment to make a difference in the life of one person.

Unfortunatly they won't Go away.

I say "Legalize", governmentize it and take away the profits from "dealing"

It's the same thing that happened in prohibition, when the outlawed it everyone became outlaws. Then they legalized it again and all those outlaws go put out of business.

Drugs will not go away(just like liqour didn'ts and illegal abortions didn't), they should be controlled. If some of the "gateway" drugs as people like to call them were not illegal alot of people wouldn't go to the harder illegal drugs.

The way it is now they figure hey, if I Pot is illegal might as well take a risk on something that's stronger and has the same legal risks.


But hey... what do I know I'm just some hippee... ;)

NOW you can close this thread LOL ;)

[jeffto]

Pretty sad that we've come to the point in the nation that people are attacked as racists simply for advocating personal responsibility.

Communism can't be too far around the corner...Advocating personal responsibility does nothing to address nor solve the problem. It's an easy out for people in ivory towers who think that these young men deserve what they get because "everybody" has an equal chance in life.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

...I don't know about that one - LOL!. There are less controversial ways to make an impact. I'm more in favor of grass-roots impact, and less in favor of government action.

I look at a guy like Yancy. He has been very blessed to have been adopted into a family that has supported his development as a person and an athlete. He is a great kid. Very few are so fortunate. I have been mentoring a kid who is a senior at Woodward since he was in the 8th grade. He earned a D1 basketball skolly against all odds. He has been in foster care his entire life. He got adopted as a teen (almost unheard of) by a couple in their late 70s. They have never seen him play. His nutrition s horrible. I took him to Longhorn steakhouse, and he didn't know how to eat a steak because he had never had one!!!

Last night at parents night was a sad affair. Cheerleader, basketball team, wrestling team...let's just say there were few parents present and only 1 or 2 dads. I don't know Burton or Mackey, but the off field/court behavior of guys who come from neighborhoods and families like many that I have seen is predictable.

Expecting Dontonio Wingfield or Chris Henry to be responsible citizens just because they are great athletes is no more reasonable than expecting a guy who looks at internet porn every day and goes to strip clubs to be faithful to his wife - it predictably is not going to happen. Let's be less judgemental and make a commitment to make a difference in the life of one person.

Perhaps an exception to the rule but my stepdaughter was raised (until HS graduation) by a single Mom (now my wife) without any of those problems. Very little $ and none from the Dad. Strong family support was / is essential. Dad is helpful (and he's now in her life, too).

[Corporateballa]

Were they in a drug infested environment? That to me is the X-factor that exponentially increases the toxicity of an enviornment.

Perhaps an exception to the rule but my stepdaughter was raised (until HS graduation) by a single Mom (now my wife) without any of those problems. Very little $ and none from the Dad. Strong family support was / is essential. Dad is helpful (and he's now in her life, too).

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Were they in a drug infested environment? That to me is the X-factor that exponentially increases the toxicity of an enviornment.

Nope. Most of America was not a drug infested environment in 1970's. Very little of it, in fact. OTR was not Drug Infested then, either.