Corie Blount - a smart guy for going to the NBA *first*

[MikeInClifton]

News item from the Enquirer -

Corie Blount, who played on UC's 1992 Final Four team and the 1993 Elite Eight team, is taking his last final exam tonight and expects to receive his degree next week. Good for him.

Not only is he getting his degree, unlike some former UC players who turned against their school after Bob Huggins was let go, Blount returned to help coach the Bearcats under Andy Kennedy two years ago after Keith LeGree was forced to resign.

He told me after that experience that he wanted to get into coaching full-time but that he needed his degree to do it. Now he's about to get that degree. Obviously, he wasn't just talking.

Much congrats to Corie Blount who wisely put off his academics to pursue his NBA career!

By my count this afforded him additional income amounting to about 1.4 million dollars to benefit him and his family. It also helped fund his educational bills to allow him to easily finish his college degree!

Any uniquely talented (repeat - uniquely talented) ball player should follow his same smart path!

If he would have foolishly finished his degree "on time", as the NCAA implies all players should before going to the NBA, it would have prevented him from his rightful earning potential.

[nachoman91]

By my count this afforded him additional income amounting to about 1.4 million dollars to benefit him and his family.

I think you may be off by a decimal point. Corie Blount made more than $14mil in his NBA career.

1993-94 Chicago Bulls NBA $620,000
1994-95 Chicago Bulls NBA $845,000
1995-96 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $1,040,000
1996-97 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $1,235,000
1997-98 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $1,430,000
1998-99 Total NBA $2,162,500
1999-00 Phoenix Suns NBA $1,100,000
2000-01 Total NBA $1,320,000
2001-02 Philadelphia 76ers NBA $1,609,235
2002-03 Chicago Bulls NBA $1,400,000
2003-04 Total NBA $1,600,000
Career (may be incomplete) $14,361,735

[qsilvr2531]

But presumably he would not have lost all that income had he stayed in school.

You could look at it a couple ways though. If he finished his schooling and then went to the NBA he probably loses a year or two of earning (which likely comes off the end of his career) costing him between 1.6 and 3 million (you need to subtract out the value of his scholarship though).

Depending on what his future coaching career is like, his being forced to go back to school for two years cost him two years of college coaching earning potential, which again will come off the end of his coaching career. If he's a great coach, leaving early would actually end up costing him money in the long run. Basically, economically speaking it isn't quite as clear cut as Mike is making it out to be. Nor should it really matter. Blount should be lauded for playing in the NBA for as long as he did and he should also be commended for going back to school to prepare himself for the his next career in basketball.

The NCAA does not imply all players should finish their degree before going to the NBA either. The NCAA implies that colleges should be encouraging players to attend class and advance toward eventually earning a degree, such that after using up their four years of eligibility they'll be ready to graduate. The NCAA also implies that colleges should not simply be places players go to prepare to play sports professionally. There are other professional leagues that already serve that purpose.

[levydl]

News item from the Enquirer -

Corie Blount, who played on UC's 1992 Final Four team and the 1993 Elite Eight team, is taking his last final exam tonight and expects to receive his degree next week. Good for him.

Not only is he getting his degree, unlike some former UC players who turned against their school after Bob Huggins was let go, Blount returned to help coach the Bearcats under Andy Kennedy two years ago after Keith LeGree was forced to resign.

He told me after that experience that he wanted to get into coaching full-time but that he needed his degree to do it. Now he's about to get that degree. Obviously, he wasn't just talking.

Much congrats to Corie Blount who wisely put off his academics to pursue his NBA career!

By my count this afforded him additional income amounting to about 1.4 million dollars to benefit him and his family. It also helped fund his educational bills to allow him to easily finish his college degree!

Any uniquely talented (repeat - uniquely talented) ball player should follow his same smart path!

If he would have foolishly finished his degree "on time", as the NCAA implies all players should before going to the NBA, it would have prevented him from his rightful earning potential.

I completely agree with you that not only should players be permitted to leave early (or never enter college at all), but also that it is often the correct choice.

But, Corie played 4 years in college, correct? 2 in JC and 2 at UC. So he didn't really put off his academics to pursue his NBA career. He got 4 years in college, he should have been really close to a degree. And had he left for the NBA with a degree in hand, he could have been coaching these last few years.

[SLMadiCat]

Did it say what his degree was in? I'm just curious.

[MikeInClifton]

I think you may be off by a decimal point. Corie Blount made more than $14mil in his NBA career.

1993-94 Chicago Bulls NBA $620,000
1994-95 Chicago Bulls NBA $845,000
1995-96 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $1,040,000
1996-97 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $1,235,000
1997-98 Los Angeles Lakers NBA $1,430,000
1998-99 Total NBA $2,162,500
1999-00 Phoenix Suns NBA $1,100,000
2000-01 Total NBA $1,320,000
2001-02 Philadelphia 76ers NBA $1,609,235
2002-03 Chicago Bulls NBA $1,400,000
2003-04 Total NBA $1,600,000
Career (may be incomplete) $14,361,735

Nope. Presuming it took him two extra years, he would have missed out on his first two Bulls contracts which equal 1.4 million. Just one extra year, it would have cost him $620K.

I will admit to assuming two years, partially because 1.4 mill sounds 'sexier' than $620K. But I truly don't know how much he had to go given their were no APR measurements back then and other factors.

He did seem to take his time after announcing he would go back to school in 2005 (approx). But I'm not sure if he went slow (1-2 classes per semester) or simply had a lot more classes to go as a full time student.

[MikeInClifton]

You could look at it a couple ways though. If he finished his schooling and then went to the NBA he probably loses a year or two of earning (which likely comes off the end of his career) costing him between 1.6 and 3 million
The end? If he stayed in school, why wouldn't it come off the beginning? The reason he quit playing is because younger players took his job, not older players.

Depending on what his future coaching career is like, his being forced to go back to school for two years cost him two years of college coaching earning potential, which again will come off the end of his coaching career. Basically, economically speaking it isn't quite as clear cut as Mike is making it out to be. I don't profess to know all Corie's numbers, nor should I. However, I think we can agree that his coaching earnings will be considerably less per year than his playing earnings.

The NCAA does not imply all players should finish their degree before going to the NBA either. The NCAA implies that colleges should be encouraging players to attend class and advance toward eventually earning a degree, such that after using up their four years of eligibility they'll be ready to graduate.

These two sentences seem to contradict each other.



[healthy debate mode]
Nick:
In your opinion, is the purpose of a University to prepare one for their chosen career or to administer and allow for an academic education resulting in a degree?

Just so ya know, I'm of the opinion that the first one is the purpose, not the second.
[\healthy debate mode]

[qsilvr2531]

I said the end because the NBA salary structure is set up based in part on seniority, so if he comes in two years later he wouldn't start at the 1+ million he got in 95-96, he'd still start at the 600K he got his rookie year (assuming his draft status remained unchanged). Assuming his ability to play would have lasted as long as it actually did, his salary progression gets cut by one year.

If Corie ends up a head coach at a major school he'll earn roughly the same per year as he did in the NBA. That's a big if, obviously, but head coaches also have long career arcs than NBA players so he'll have a longer time to reach that level.

They don't contradict each other at all. One focuses on what the NCAA wants the individual players to do. The other focuses on what the NCAA wants the colleges to do. The NCAA wants colleges to focus on educating their student athletes. If colleges do this they'll consistently graduate their players. That's why they don't punish the individual students who don't graduate (by say, forcing schools to have a provision in their athletic scholarships that require students to pay back their tuition if they don't graduate) but they do punish the school itself.

As far as the last question goes, I'm of the opinion that it depends greatly on the college and the degree program in question (which is why not every college is good for every person. People need to match their goals to the college of choice). UC has programs that work towards both goals. If you are getting a degree in English Lit, you probably aren't being prepared for your chosen career. If you are getting on in Engineering you probably are.

When it comes to NCAA athletes, until they aren't required to take classes I think it is fair to assume that the universities should be treating them like other students. If they have the talent to go to the NBA (or play basketball in Europe or whatever) then more power to them, they should make the decisions that work best for them (and above, I'm not saying Blount made the wrong decision, I'm just saying it isn't quite as cut and dry financially as it seems. It was still probably the right decision financially and there is much more to the decision that just money). However, the university should still be responsible for their progress through school.

[MikeInClifton]

As far as the last question goes, I'm of the opinion that it depends greatly on the college and the degree program in question (which is why not every college is good for every person. People need to match their goals to the college of choice). UC has programs that work towards both goals. If you are getting a degree in English Lit, you probably aren't being prepared for your chosen career. If you are getting on in Engineering you probably are.

Thanks for your thoughts. Want to focus on this point -

How would your (or anyone's) opinion change if we were comparing them to less mainstream majors such as these (http://www.uc.edu/degreeprograms/searchPrograms.aspx?interestArea=3)? Or maybe even Art History, Culinary Arts or Fashion Design?

These all are types of degrees based in the Arts. A specific talent and length of study is needed to do well in these areas. But a specific talent and length of study is needed to do well in sports. Your career choices are more limited, but for the exceptional performer, they are not limited at all.

So how different is Sports from Art?


I still think of a former boss of mine who had a degree in Art History, but was in charge of a multi million dollar credit card program. After discussions with him I realized that he went to college to study the easiest thing he could study that would result in a degree - any degree. I felt he cheated the system to get what he wanted as easily as he could get it and did nothing with that degree upon receiving it. And I dont see a difference between that and a ball player leaving college early.

I didn't see a difference between him and Corie Blount or any student athlete that left school early to pursue their career choice. Blount just did it earlier than my former boss.

[levydl]

But Corie didn't leave school early.

[qsilvr2531]

As I said, I don't have any problem with what Blount did (in fact, I think what he did was great. Going to the NBA was likely a dream of his since he was young and he achieved it. That's really cool).

Actually, I'd argue that your career choices are more limited in basketball than they are in art. Either way, how is sports different from Engineering in terms of talent and lenght of study?

However, in this case they aren't comparable specifically because basketball is NOT a degree program. Could it be? Maybe. Should it be? No idea. But it isn't. UC's basketball players are not majoring in Basketball, they are majoring in Criminal Justice or Sociology, etc. As long as that is true, Universities have a responsibility to treat them like students.

The real problem is the lack of options for basketball and football players outside of the NCAA, not the way the NCAA handles things. While the lack of a high profile minor league system in both sports (the D-league and NFL Europe don't really count) certainly improves the quality of play for the NCAA, it comes at the expense of forcing players who have no business or interest in college to attend classes. That isn't something the NCAA can fix without somehow seperating the rules for football and basketball from all the other sports.

[MikeInClifton]

But Corie didn't leave school early.

Right. Thats why I put "or".
Players leaving school early also put off their education for their career.

[Catmandu]

The end? If he stayed in school, why wouldn't it come off the beginning? The reason he quit playing is because younger players took his job, not older players.

I don't profess to know all Corie's numbers, nor should I. However, I think we can agree that his coaching earnings will be considerably less per year than his playing earnings.



These two sentences seem to contradict each other.



[healthy debate mode]
Nick:
In your opinion, is the purpose of a University to prepare one for their chosen career or to administer and allow for an academic education resulting in a degree?

Just so ya know, I'm of the opinion that the first one is the purpose, not the second.
[\healthy debate mode]


LOL... Healthy debate mode :)

[MikeInClifton]

Sorry about the length, but this is obviously something I have thought about for some time . . .

Actually, I'd argue that your career choices are more limited in basketball than they are in art. Either way, how is sports different from Engineering in terms of talent and lenght of study?

Right! Thats my point. Although the skills sets for sports and engineering are very different, they both involve a natural interest and ability combined with specified training to increase the knowledge level for both disciplines.

Elite athletes should be celebrated for their achievements when they leave before completion of their degree, whether their four years is up or not. And to address your 'limited' comment I want to say I'm speaking of the elite athlete. The player that pro scouts say will be drafted in the NFL, NBA, MLB, or, like Eric Hicks, Bobby Brannen, etc, can go overseas and likely succeed based on the professional opinions of these qualified scouts.

A friend of mine attended UC Engineering years ago, co-op program. Just as he decided to study for his Masters he was hired away to an engineering firm at a nice salary. He decided that he didn't need anymore schooling and he was ready to start in his chosen career. Today he owns his own company. In his mind he 'left school early', even though he did get a four yr Eng degree.

However, in this case they aren't comparable specifically because basketball is NOT a degree program. Could it be? Maybe. Should it be? No idea. But it isn't. UC's basketball players are not majoring in Basketball, they are majoring in Criminal Justice or Sociology, etc. As long as that is true, Universities have a responsibility to treat them like students.

The real problem is the lack of options for basketball and football players outside of the NCAA, not the way the NCAA handles things. While the lack of a high profile minor league system in both sports (the D-league and NFL Europe don't really count) certainly improves the quality of play for the NCAA, it comes at the expense of forcing players who have no business or interest in college to attend classes. That isn't something the NCAA can fix without somehow seperating the rules for football and basketball from all the other sports.

A degree in 'Sports' or 'Basketball' is not a new idea, its simply one that has not been created to the satisfaction of the University culture. The average American doesn't see 'professional athlete' as a 'real job', so therefore there is no degree program offered for it by the university system. I think it would have to be a culture change issue. I think it could be a degree program and I know I'm in the minority. However, the Bureau of Labor Statistics considers musicians and professional athletes in the same category (http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs031.htm) so thats another reason that it seems odd to me to offer degree's in music but not sports. Pro athletes and pro musicians are both entertainers.

Example -The University of Cincinnati has a degree program Bachelor's Degree of Arts in the Euphonium. I had never heard of an euphonium until a few days ago. Apparently it is a "conical-bore, baritone-voiced brass instrument." Now if a prominent American University can create a degree for the euphonium, why cant it create one called a 'Bachelor's Degree of Arts in Professional Sports'?

Classes could include
finance
contract law
"what to do when you are done playing?"
personal accounting
sports management
physiology
for BBall - Offensive sets 101
for FBall - The 4-3 defense
Sports psychology
dangers of steroids
sports medicine and nutrition
statistics
etc

FYI - NFL Europe is now defunct.

[levydl]

Right. Thats why I put "or".
Players leaving school early also put off their education for their career.

Perhaps I'm dense. I still don't understand what you mean.

Corie was in college for 4 years. He exhausted his eligibility. What was he going to do, sit out a year and finish his degree and then try to get drafted? This doesn't seem like much of a decision to me.

D. Johnson made the right decision in leaving early (and being a lottery pick) when he had the option of playing 3 more years. Corie really didn't have a choice.

However, had he finished his degree in the 4 years he was playing ball in school (I know it's difficult when you have Huggs' practices and games all the time, but still), he could have been coaching these last few years, and may be a top or 2nd assistant right now instead of looking to get his foot in the door.

[qsilvr2531]

Mike, I think we agree in principle, at least for the most part. There really isn't anything preventing athletics from becoming a degree program (I don't think it should be a degree program in "professional sports" per see) except culture. But the culture isn't just on the college side. Professional athletics are still one of the most anti-intellectual places you'll ever find and there is a reason they do not require a college degree while something like an major orchestra might require one from a Euphonium player.

The biggest obstacle is that the only two sports where it would make sense are basketball and football. The other sports where it would work already have "degree programs" to train you to be a professional player, except instead of having to pay to be earn a degree in those programs they get paid (not much, but it's better than paying) to practice and play their sport.

I also like the added humor value of a player leaving his professional sports degree program early to go play professional sports. :)

[Lobot]

Mike, I think we agree in principle, at least for the most part. There really isn't anything preventing athletics from becoming a degree program (I don't think it should be a degree program in "professional sports" per see) except culture. But the culture isn't just on the college side. Professional athletics are still one of the most anti-intellectual places you'll ever find and there is a reason they do not require a college degree while something like an major orchestra might require one from a Euphonium player.

About this Euphonium thing. You need a Masters in <pick an instrument> Performance to pursue a decent musical career other than Music Ed. , unless you play in a rock band. A better analogy for the sake of this argument would be the child prodigy who is so good that they need no schooling and jump right in to the musical job market and are able skip music school all together.

A lot of truly gifted CCM students do in fact leave school early for jobs. Some of it is due to cost. Although there are full rides available for CCM, most students have to pay a portion of their tuition and most are from out of state or even out of the country. This is not the case for athletes who get the full ride period. Nick Aldridge excluded. (maybe)

Unfortunately the NBA rule keeps many of the basketball prodigies in school for a year. Otherwise they wouldn't be in college at all and in some cases a lot of this discussion wouldn't be valid. I'm surprised more of the prodigy types don't insure themselves and go to Europe, make a bunch of cash for a year and then declare for the draft.

Sorry for the sidebar. I'm from a CCM grad's family and the Euphonium thing was driving me nuts.