Modern day Bearcats vs Vintage Bearcats

[waterhead]

In regards to something mentioned in a different thread I would like to learn a little about the old timers that played for UC, we will just call them pre-Huggins. I am going to pick a team of guys from the Huggins era (and after) to start off the debate of who had the better players. I will put some names out there for the old timers to vote on which of those guys to make a team from. I don't know which positions they all played so I will leave that up to those who know. The young guys in this forum can vote on the modern day players (past 15 years or so). Here's a start:

Modern day Bearcats

Martin (center)
Fortson (power forward)
Logan (point guard)
Van Exel (shooting guard)
Jones (swing man/small forward)

You could probably switch Logan and Van Exel at positions and it wouldn't matter much. I don't think either was a true point but I could be wrong. There are 3 all americans on this list and the one who isn't probably deserved it. In a time when the competition was a little tougher all of these guys played on national championship caliber teams. I need some help at swing man as there are a few candidates but nobody really stands out.

Vintage Bearcats (just names, don't really know positions)

Robertson
Twyman
Bonham
Hogue
Cummings

Some of the Vintage Cats were a part of the teams that started our great tradition. UC went to the final four 5 years in a row including back to back national championships against you know who (OSU if you don't). Five years in a row is a feat only topped by one team in NCAA history and you know who (UCLA if you don't)

That's a start...let the debate begin. I gotta admit 2 championships will be hard to overcome but perhaps player by player the young guys will match up well and prevail.

[Nator]

I would think Herb Jones would be the 3 on the modern but that is with about 2 seconds of thought.

[waterhead]

That was my first thought so I will throw him in there for now.

[Oldtimer_UC_fan]

The newcomers would have a very hard time competing with any team that has Robertson and Twyman. Bonham was a lights out shooter. Cummings was also, and, physical. Hogue was similar to Martin, but,not quite as good offensively. He wouldn't have to be.....Robertson, Twyman and Bonham would be more than enough. I know you young guys wouldn't agree, but, this game would be a total mismatch in favor of the old guys. Oh, and by the way.....Except for Hogue, this team could shoot free throws. Bonham was over 90% one year, I believe, and Robertson and Twyman were excellent.

[juckerrules]

In regards to something mentioned in a different thread I would like to learn a little about the old timers that played for UC, we will just call them pre-Huggins. I am going to pick a team of guys from the Huggins era (and after) to start off the debate of who had the better players. I will put some names out there for the old timers to vote on which of those guys to make a team from. I don't know which positions they all played so I will leave that up to those who know. The young guys in this forum can vote on the modern day players (past 15 years or so). Here's a start:

Modern day Bearcats

Martin (center)
Fortson (power forward)
Logan (point guard)
Van Exel (shooting guard)
Jones (swing man/small forward)

You could probably switch Logan and Van Exel at positions and it wouldn't matter much. I don't think either was a true point but I could be wrong. There are 3 all americans on this list and the one who isn't probably deserved it. In a time when the competition was a little tougher all of these guys played on national championship caliber teams. I need some help at swing man as there are a few candidates but nobody really stands out.

Vintage Bearcats (just names, don't really know positions)

Robertson
Twyman
Bonham
Hogue
Cummings

Some of the Vintage Cats were a part of the teams that started our great tradition. UC went to the final four 5 years in a row including back to back national championships against you know who (OSU if you don't). Five years in a row is a feat only matched by one team in NCAA history and you know who (UCLA if you don't)

That's a start...let the debate begin. I gotta admit 2 championships will be hard to overcome but perhaps player by player the young guys will match up well and prevail.

I think Duke made 5 final 4's in a row from '88-'92

[richard k.]

The newcomers would have a very hard time competing with any team that has Robertson and Twyman. Bonham was a lights out shooter. Cummings was also, and, physical. Hogue was similar to Martin, but,not quite as good offensively. He wouldn't have to be.....Robertson, Twyman and Bonham would be more than enough. I know you young guys wouldn't agree, but, this game would be a total mismatch in favor of the old guys. Oh, and by the way.....Except for Hogue, this team could shoot free throws. Bonham was over 90% one year, I believe, and Robertson and Twyman were excellent.
After giving it some thought, and disregarding any general differential in 1950's-1960's physical attributes versus the Huggins era, I agree that it wouldn't be much of a contest. Oscar may well have been the greatest college basketball player of all time, certainly one of the top 5, and it was a privilege to be at UC to watch him play. Candidly, as good as Kenyon was in his senior year, I think either Tall Paul or Connie Dierking would at least semi-offset his skills, and realistically there is no comparison at the rest of the positions, even though the "old" guys team you present has only 1 player who could realistically be called a "guard." Everyone knows and accepts how great Oscar was, but I wonder just how many people realize how good Twyman, Bonham, and Cummings (& Ard, & you can fill in the rest of the names) really were?

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

After giving it some thought, and disregarding any general differential in 1950's-1960's physical attributes versus the Huggins era, I agree that it wouldn't be much of a contest. Oscar may well have been the greatest college basketball player of all time, certainly one of the top 5, and it was a privilege to be at UC to watch him play. Candidly, as good as Kenyon was in his senior year, I think either Tall Paul or Connie Dierking would at least semi-offset his skills, and realistically there is no comparison at the rest of the positions, even though the "old" guys team you present has only 1 player who could realistically be called a "guard." Everyone knows and accepts how great Oscar was, but I wonder just how many people realize how good Twyman, Bonham, and Cummings (& Ard, & you can fill in the rest of the names) really were?

Paul Hogue stopped Jerry Lucas 2 straight years. He was a heckuva college player.

Oscar, Hogue, Bonham, Wilson, Thacker, Roberson, Ard, Dickey (etc) would be tough to beat as a team in any era.

[Texcat]

In regards to something mentioned in a different thread I would like to learn a little about the old timers that played for UC, we will just call them pre-Huggins.
Vintage Bearcats (just names, don't really know positions)

Bonham
Hogue

Some of the Vintage Cats were a part of the teams that started our great tradition. UC went to the final four 5 years in a row including back to back national championships against you know who (OSU if you don't). Five years in a row is a feat only matched by one team in NCAA history and you know who (UCLA if you don't)

That's a start...let the debate begin. I gotta admit 2 championships will be hard to overcome but perhaps player by player the young guys will match up well and prevail.

You forgot Tom Thacker, for one....George Wilson for another....and Tony Yates (a much better player than coach). I had the pleasure of watching those "post-Robertson" national championship players for four years. Although we should have won three consecutive championships, I'll settle for two that we won. Ron Bonham was absolutely the best shooter of his era. If the three point rule had been in effect then, Bonham would have shattered every scoring record on the books. In today's vernacular, he was "awesome"!

All of them were on the potential "all American" list from the beginning of the season to the end. In their third attempt at a national championship, they lost one game by one point (Dave Stallworth smacked in 46 for Wichita State). They lost to Loyola in overtime in the national championship (after being up by 15!).

One other thing, at the time it was reported by many sportswriters that the "red shirts" (the guys who normally sat the bench for the Bearcats) were probably the #2 team in the country.

I love UC basketball and we've had very many great players over the years. However, I don't think we'll ever repeat those years of '61-'65. FYI, Ed Jucker's teams of that era were often referred to as "the Yankees of basketball".

[The real Bearcat Fan]

These are the positions the Bearcat Vintage players
Oscar "Big O" Robertson played guard on offense not point guard or shooting guard but guard and played small forward sometimes on defense. Oscar controlled the game whenever he was on the floor and defenses had to build there game plan around him. Oscar could do it all and is still the best player ever to play at UC; his statistics still speak for themselves. Oscar is considered by many the greatest college basketball player ever. Oscar I believed played on two Final Four teams. Oscar won three straight national player of the year awards while at UC
Jack Twyman played small forward and was a great shooter.
Ron Bonham played small forward also a great shooter especially from the corner. Ron Bonham played on a National Championship team and a National Champion Runner -Up team.
Pat Cummings played power forward at 6-9, 250lbs
Paul Hogue played center, H was a great rebounder and a big presence in the paint. He played on two national championship teams.

My Starting 5 Vintage players are:

Point guard: Tony Yates: Tony was Ed Jucker's coach on the floor he did not turn the ball over and controlled the game. Tony played great defense especially on the ball defense. Two National Championships and a National Championship Runner-Up in three years at UC (freshmen were ineligible when Tony played. He was about 6-1, 175 lbs.

Shooting guard Tom Thacker: Tom's nickname was the Cobra because of the way he snaked through defenses; Tom also was a good rebounder from the guard position. He played excellent defense. Two National Championships and a National Championship Runner-Up in three years at UC (freshmen were also ineligible when Tom played.

Point Forward: Oscar "THE BIG O" Robertson 6-5 225, Oscar could do it all and is still the best player ever to play at UC, his statistics still speaks for themselves. Oscar is considered by many the greatest college basketball player ever. Oscar I believed played on two Final Four teams. Oscar won three straight national player of the year awards while at UC. As a matter of fact the present day National Player of the Year Award is named after him.

Power forward: Pat Cummings 6-9, 250 A great shooter from the outside and inside and excellent rebounder. Was not very athletic but was big and strong.

Paul Hogue: 6-9 265lbs. Big, powerful and strong, a great rebounder and scorer inside who played great post defense. Paul played on Two National Championship Teams and guarded the great Jerry Lucas in both games.


In regards to something mentioned in a different thread I would like to learn a little about the old timers that played for UC, we will just call them pre-Huggins. I am going to pick a team of guys from the Huggins era (and after) to start off the debate of who had the better players. I will put some names out there for the old timers to vote on which of those guys to make a team from. I don't know which positions they all played so I will leave that up to those who know. The young guys in this forum can vote on the modern day players (past 15 years or so). Here's a start:

Modern day Bearcats

Martin (center)
Fortson (power forward)
Logan (point guard)
Van Exel (shooting guard)
Jones (swing man/small forward)

You could probably switch Logan and Van Exel at positions and it wouldn't matter much. I don't think either was a true point but I could be wrong. There are 3 all americans on this list and the one who isn't probably deserved it. In a time when the competition was a little tougher all of these guys played on national championship caliber teams. I need some help at swing man as there are a few candidates but nobody really stands out.

Vintage Bearcats (just names, don't really know positions)

Robertson
Twyman
Bonham
Hogue
Cummings

Some of the Vintage Cats were a part of the teams that started our great tradition. UC went to the final four 5 years in a row including back to back national championships against you know who (OSU if you don't). Five years in a row is a feat only matched by one team in NCAA history and you know who (UCLA if you don't)

That's a start...let the debate begin. I gotta admit 2 championships will be hard to overcome but perhaps player by player the young guys will match up well and prevail.

[Bearcat_DF]

My Starting 5 Vintage players are:

Point guard: Tony Yates: Tony was Ed Jucker's coach on the floor he did not turn the ball over and controlled the game. Tony played great defense especially on the ball defense. Two National Championships and a National Championship Runner-Up in three years at UC (freshmen were ineligible when Tony played. He was about 6-1, 175 lbs.

Shooting guard Tom Thacker: Tom's nickname was the Cobra because of the way he snaked through defenses; Tom also was a good rebounder from the guard position. He played excellent defense. Two National Championships and a National Championship Runner-Up in three years at UC (freshmen were also ineligible when Tom played.

Point Forward: Oscar "THE BIG O" Robertson 6-5 225, Oscar could do it all and is still the best player ever to play at UC, his statistics still speaks for themselves. Oscar is considered by many the greatest college basketball player ever. Oscar I believed played on two Final Four teams. Oscar won three straight national player of the year awards while at UC. As a matter of fact the present day National Player of the Year Award is named after him.

Power forward: Pat Cummings 6-9, 250 A great shooter from the outside and inside and excellent rebounder. Was not very athletic but was big and strong.

Paul Hogue: 6-9 265lbs. Big, powerful and strong, a great rebounder and scorer inside who played great post defense. Paul played on Two National Championship Teams and guarded the great Jerry Lucas in both games.

It seems you have to get Tywman on the floor. I think the best option is moving the Big O to the 2 position. You could also go small and sit Cummings or Hogue. I think you have to get the best 5 athletes on the court.

Go Cats!
DF

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

It seems you have to get Tywman on the floor. I think the best option is moving the Big O to the 2 position. You could also go small and sit Cummings or Hogue. I think you have to get the best 5 athletes on the court.

Go Cats!
DF

Yates and Thacker at G. Oscar and Twyman at F. Hogue at C. That team wins a lot of games in any era.

[Nator]

The experienced fans have overtaken this thread...where is the debate on the moderns. I suggest herb jones for the 3 but wouldn't Rueben deserve some support?

-Kenyon, Danny and Nick - are locks in my mind
-Herb or Rueben for the 3
-I am not sold on Logan as the other guard. Wouldn't someboday more athletic be better compliment to Nick or perhaps a flat out shooter? (not that Logan was bad in that department). If I am understanding the question correctly, its not who are the best 5 but what combination of 5 would make the best team.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

The experienced fans have overtaken this thread...where is the debate on the moderns. I suggest herb jones for the 3 but wouldn't Rueben deserve some support?

-Kenyon, Danny and Nick - are locks in my mind
-Herb or Rueben for the 3
-I am not sold on Logan as the other guard. Wouldn't someboday more athletic be better compliment to Nick or perhaps a flat out shooter? (not that Logan was bad in that department). If I am understanding the question correctly, its not who are the best 5 but what combination of 5 would make the best team.

K-Mart #1 but Herb was the second most talented Bearcat of the Huggins era. If he were 6-7 instead of 6-3, he'd have made All-Pro in NBA.

Nick PG. Herb WF. Fortson PF. K-Mart C. Perhaps Buford at SG. Probably DerMarr though.

[ctipton]

Don't you have to include Dontonio Wingfield among the current players. Even though he was here for one year only, Huggins said he was the best recruit he ever had.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Don't you have to include Dontonio Wingfield among the current players. Even though he was here for one year only, Huggins said he was the best recruit he ever had.

Best recruit but not best player. I don't even put him in Huggs' Top 10 on the court.

[waterhead]

The experienced fans have overtaken this thread...where is the debate on the moderns. I suggest herb jones for the 3 but wouldn't Rueben deserve some support?

-Kenyon, Danny and Nick - are locks in my mind
-Herb or Rueben for the 3
-I am not sold on Logan as the other guard. Wouldn't someboday more athletic be better compliment to Nick or perhaps a flat out shooter? (not that Logan was bad in that department). If I am understanding the question correctly, its not who are the best 5 but what combination of 5 would make the best team.

Logan is in the UC record books in a large amount of categories including but not limited to 2nd all time scoring, Most games won, Best free throw percentage, most 3 pointers, best 3 point percentage, most minutes, most games, most assists, etc. He was one of 3 All Americans during Huggs tenure. I think a guy like that can fit in on just about any team. I think 4 players are locks and the 5th is up for grabs.

Martin (center)
Fortson (forward)
Van Exel (guard)
Logan (guard)
(Jones, Patterson, Johnson, Wingfield, Mickeal, Buford, Banks)

We need a swing man or small forward. Would like to give it to someone who at least played 2 years for the cats.

[waterhead]

I think Duke made 5 final 4's in a row from '88-'92

You are correct. The statement has been changed to "topped" instead of "matched".

[Oldtimer_UC_fan]

So, you'd move the best assist man in history to the 2 guard? I cannot imagine anyone I'd rather have with the basketball than the Big O. You could take Bonham out of the starting lineup, and insert Thacker, I suppose. But, I really think Twyman could play the 2 guard. With Oscar in there, it wouldn't matter much. I know a lot of you never saw him play, but, he was truly amazing.

[Texcat]

Logan is in the UC record books in a large amount of categories including but not limited to 2nd all time scoring, Most games won, Best free throw percentage, most 3 pointers, best 3 point percentage, most minutes, most games, most assists, etc. He was one of 3 All Americans during Huggs tenure. I think a guy like that can fit in on just about any team.


I think Steve Logan should also be in the record books for selecting and listening to the dumbest damn professional agent in history. He could have been an NBA star (in my opinion). Instead, nobody outside of this forum has ever heard of him. What a wasted talent.

Texcat