NCAA may need to rethink APR calculation

[jkwuc89]

Greg Oden withdrew from classes at OSU to concentrate on his NBA career. According to the current APR rules, unless he has the credits and/or the grades to remain eligible, this will have a negative impact on OSU's APR score and could result in a scholarship reduction.

I think schools who lose players to the NBA draft are caught between a rock and a hard place. In Greg Oden's case, what motivation could he possibly have to stay in school and finish the current semester? Helping OSU's APR score certainly wasn't enough. Perhaps the NCAA needs to rethink how it calculates the APR in cases like these. Otherwise, top-flight programs across the country are going to get hit by this when their top players leave for the NBA and don't want to attend classes anymore.

Thoughts? And please try to keep this thread on the subject of possibly adjusting the APR. I don't want this to turn into an OSU bashing thread.

[GoCats1994]

I happen to agree with the way it is calculated. This is a decision you must weigh as a coach. Do you recruit the guy that is willing to help you for one season - knowing it will set your program back in the future.....Or do you recriut the guys that may be less talented yet will be around for four years.

I believe adjusting the calculation for cases like Oden would defeat the purpose.

[Oldtimer_UC_fan]

Greg Oden withdrew from classes at OSU to concentrate on his NBA career. According to the current APR rules, unless he has the credits and/or the grades to remain eligible, this will have a negative impact on OSU's APR score and could result in a scholarship reduction.

I think schools who lose players to the NBA draft are caught between a rock and a hard place. In Greg Oden's case, what motivation could he possibly have to stay in school and finish the current semester? Helping OSU's APR score certainly wasn't enough. Perhaps the NCAA needs to rethink how it calculates the APR in cases like these. Otherwise, top-flight programs across the country are going to get hit by this when their top players leave for the NBA and don't want to attend classes anymore.

Thoughts? And please try to keep this thread on the subject of possibly adjusting the APR. I don't want this to turn into an OSU bashing thread.

I don't feel it's fair to penalize a school because they're recruiting players good enough to jump to the NBA. I feel that once a player goes through the draft process, his grades should be deducted from the formula retroactive to the end of the basketball season, or, to the last complete semester he attended. Things that are completely out of the control of the university should not be included.....such as players jumping to the NBA, transfers, etc.

[bearcatfan]

I have said for years that the NBA needs a minor league system similar to MLB. If a player has no intention if playing more than one year or his only goal is the NBA and not an education then an NBA minor league would work well for him.

Right now, college basketball is the minor league for the NBA in many cases.

Perhaps players should be required to attend a school for at least 2 years and obtain at least an Associate Degree. The purpose of college is to get an education, not prepare you for a professional sport. Although that is a side benefit for the better athletes.

[qsilvr2531]

This wasn't really out of the Universities control, they knew ahead of time that this exact situation would happen. In some cases it might not be fair, but in the case of guys like Durant and Oden it's a choice the University took.

The new NBA age limit was designed to make the NCAA more of a minor league system. Bobby Knight complained about the age limit for exactly this reason.

[London 'Cat]

I believe the NCAA rule and formula re: APR is designed to deter the "one and done" players from ever entering college. A school that recruits a series of this type of player will benefit greatly in the short term and suffer in the long term. A coach must weigh heavily whether that coach wishes to take a player that may adversely impact the program as a whole in exchange for the player's short term impact on the team's and/or program's success. As instituted, the rule is fair, in my opinion, as the coach knows in advance that this adverse impact may result from recruiting such a player.

[levydl]

I'd trade a scholarship next year for Kevin Durant this year in a heartbeat.

[MikeInClifton]

I have said for years that the NBA needs a minor league system similar to MLB. If a player has no intention if playing more than one year or his only goal is the NBA and not an education then an NBA minor league would work well for him.

Right now, college basketball is the minor league for the NBA in many cases.


www.nbdl.com

[MikeInClifton]

Perhaps players should be required to attend a school for at least 2 years and obtain at least an Associate Degree. The purpose of college is to get an education, not prepare you for a professional sport. Although that is a side benefit for the better athletes.

I see the word 'education' more globally. Greg Oden successfully used his University experience to prepare him for his chosen career as a professional basketball player. I see him as a success for OSU, not a negative.

And why is preparing oneself for a professional sport different from preparing oneself for a profession?

[qsilvr2531]

Then why require him to go to class at all (especially since he could have been using that time to better prepare himself for a professional sport)?

[Josh Rexhausen]

Then why require him to go to class at all (especially since he could have been using that time to better prepare himself for a professional sport)?

I took humanities and social science classes, which did not prepare me for my job as an engineer, but they make me a more rounded person.

Go to college to better youself, if that means taking some classes, getting a degree or getting a better job good for you. I don't think the sole purpose of a university is to crank out degees/graduates, it is there for you to learn.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Greg Oden withdrew from classes at OSU to concentrate on his NBA career. According to the current APR rules, unless he has the credits and/or the grades to remain eligible, this will have a negative impact on OSU's APR score and could result in a scholarship reduction.

I think schools who lose players to the NBA draft are caught between a rock and a hard place. In Greg Oden's case, what motivation could he possibly have to stay in school and finish the current semester? Helping OSU's APR score certainly wasn't enough. Perhaps the NCAA needs to rethink how it calculates the APR in cases like these. Otherwise, top-flight programs across the country are going to get hit by this when their top players leave for the NBA and don't want to attend classes anymore.

Thoughts? And please try to keep this thread on the subject of possibly adjusting the APR. I don't want this to turn into an OSU bashing thread.

I don't like the APR period.

[Lobot]

I believe the NCAA rule and formula re: APR is designed to deter the "one and done" players from ever entering college. A school that recruits a series of this type of player will benefit greatly in the short term and suffer in the long term. A coach must weigh heavily whether that coach wishes to take a player that may adversely impact the program as a whole in exchange for the player's short term impact on the team's and/or program's success. As instituted, the rule is fair, in my opinion, as the coach knows in advance that this adverse impact may result from recruiting such a player.

IMO, one and done recruits should be headed to the D league with a big insurance policy against injury, not into college.

[qsilvr2531]

I took humanities and social science classes, which did not prepare me for my job as an engineer, but they make me a more rounded person.

Go to college to better youself, if that means taking some classes, getting a degree or getting a better job good for you. I don't think the sole purpose of a university is to crank out degees/graduates, it is there for you to learn.

I also took humanities and social sciences in my engineering program. I didn't take them to to make me a more well rounded person though, I did it because it was required to get my degree.

I don't question the value of learning at the university, I question the value of forcing someone to learn at a university when they clearly have no desire to. Oden didn't take classes to learn or to become a more well rounded person, he took them so he could remain eligible for long enough to solidify his position as the #1 or #2 pick in the draft. If the NCAA is then going to give OSU credit for him as a student, why bother making him go to class in the first place?

[red_n_black_attack]

I feel that once a player goes through the draft process, his grades should be deducted from the formula retroactive to the end of the basketball season, or, to the last complete semester he attended. Things that are completely out of the control of the university should not be included.....such as players jumping to the NBA, transfers, etc.


By your logic, players who have exhausted their playing eligibility should stop going to class after the season, and it would not count against the APR.

The system is not perfect, but this suggestion would really muddy the waters.

You also said, "Things that are completely out of the control of the university should not be included.....such as players jumping to the NBA, transfers, etc" WHAT? Are you kidding. There is a mile-wide loophole here. Kids with good grades (taking advantage of the scholarship to advance themselves) would be the only ones counted. Kids with bad grades or dropping grades would be 'released' and it would all be hidden.

A better idea might be to make a kid responsible for his/her letter of intent. Tie the scholarship to academic minimum passing standards with penalties. If a kid fails academically they lose the scholarship or (I know it is already in place) fail to qualify academically to play! Further penalties for leaving early would require the ex-student to repay his/her scholarship if the choose to leave school before sompleting two full academic years. A player leaving early would have to be certain there was that pot of gold at the end of the professional draft waiting for them.

There would be ways around any system. Greg Oden is a special case and I hope he has fun playing in the Pacific Northwest (Seattle or Portland) because the rest of the country won't hear anything about his success or failings.

[nachoman91]

I see the word 'education' more globally. Greg Oden successfully used his University experience to prepare him for his chosen career as a professional basketball player. I see him as a success for OSU, not a negative.

And why is preparing oneself for a professional sport different from preparing oneself for a profession?


Exactly! And what I've been saying for years. Well put Mike.

The common misconception is that people go to college to "get an education". This is simply not true for 95% of college students. They go to college to prepare themselves for their career, not to just get an education. If I wanted an education I'd go to the public library, it's a lot less expensive. So why can't athletes go to college to prepare themselves for their career (professional athletics)?

And for that matter why not make basketball or football a major. Teach classes like "Coaching", "Strength Training", "Contract Negotiation", "Money Management", etc that will have a real world impact on these kids. Forcing these kids to take classes in something they'll never use is just a waste of time.

[qsilvr2531]

Exactly! And what I've been saying for years. Well put Mike.

The common misconception is that people go to college to "get an education". This is simply not true for 95% of college students. They go to college to prepare themselves for their career, not to just get an education. If I wanted an education I'd go to the public library, it's a lot less expensive. So why can't athletes go to college to prepare themselves for their career (professional athletics)?

And for that matter why not make basketball or football a major. Teach classes like "Coaching", "Strength Training", "Contract Negotiation", "Money Management", etc that will have a real world impact on these kids. Forcing these kids to take classes in something they'll never use is just a waste of time.

If you feel you can get a better education from the public library than a university then you did waste your money at the university. The education is what prepares college students for their career and there is a reason it costs more than a public library.

The majority of these kids won't be using their basketball or football degree either. Why make them take any classes at all (in basketball or anything else). Why not just let them come to campus for free and play basketball while paying their living expenses? Let the few that want an education get one, and let the rest just play their sport.

Almost all of the classes you listed under the hypothetical "basketball" or "football" major already exist in some other program, btw. I'd be very impressed if someone could come up with a legitimate 4 year basketball or football academic program but if a school did that program approved for the general public I don't believe there is anything preventing a scholarship athlete from entering the program.

[levydl]

If you feel you can get a better education from the public library than a university then you did waste your money at the university. The education is what prepares college students for their career and there is a reason it costs more than a public library.

The majority of these kids won't be using their basketball or football degree either. Why make them take any classes at all (in basketball or anything else). Why not just let them come to campus for free and play basketball while paying their living expenses? Let the few that want an education get one, and let the rest just play their sport.

Almost all of the classes you listed under the hypothetical "basketball" or "football" major already exist in some other program, btw. I'd be very impressed if someone could come up with a legitimate 4 year basketball or football academic program but if a school did that program approved for the general public I don't believe there is anything preventing a scholarship athlete from entering the program.

I had a friend that went to CCM for acting and took nothing but acting and singing and writing classes. Is acting a skill more worthy of a degree than basketball? He got class credit each time he was in a play. But basketball players play 30 games a year, practice constantly, have individual instruction, do conditioning, have year round weightlifting, etc., etc., yet don't even get a 3 credit course for such participation!!! So you can get a major in music, but you can't even get a 3 credit class for basketball. Does that make any sense?

What about dancers at CCM? What about artists? Why are their skills more suitable for a degree than playing basketball? Are their skills more useful? Do the artists and singers and dancers and actors have better "teachers?" Do they get as much individual instruction (can you imagine being in a major with 13 others!?!)? I'll guarantee you those who played basketball at UC are making more money per capita with their basketball education than the CMM students are making with theirs. But a CCM education is seen as a tremendous asset, while a UC basketball players are disparaged for not completing their criminal justice degree.

Why is an artist or a musician or an actor or a singer valued more than a basketball player?

[qsilvr2531]

First, I believe I said that if someone can create a legitimate basketball program that would be approved there would be nothing preventing a scholarship athlete from taking that major. It would take more than "show up at your extracuricular and perform the required tasks" though (or do you think that is all CCM majors do?). It would also have to be open to the public (not just players on basketball scholarships) like those CCM programs are and would thus have more than 13 other students. It is unlikely Mick and his assistants would be able to teach all (or maybe even any) of the courses due to his already extremely demanding schedule (if he barely has time to see his children now, I don't think he can be expected to take on teaching responsibilities beyond his coaching) so UC would need to hire other basketball coaches to teach courses (something Mick might not like if they are teaching things contrary to his philosophy, so he'd need to be involved in the hiring/firing process). I think a program could probably be created, but I don't think there is enough interest (beyond the 13 people on campus that have a chance at using the program in the future) in such a program for it to really work. Creating a program for 13 students without some crossover to other programs isn't going to happen though, it would need to be linked to other programs (like sports management or something).

Second, Basketball players get paid, by way of their scholarship, for the practice, conditioning, individual instruction, and the 30 games they play. They aren't being taught a class, they aren't being graded and that class isn't available to anyone except 13 students in the specific extracuricular activity. However, I would have no problem if coaches were allowed to give grades (or just pass/fail) for a 3 credit basketball class every winter quarter (much like CCM majors get credit for plays and band members get class credit for being in the band). What they do, however, is not the equivalent of a complete 4 year academic program that would lead to a degree, so that class credit would be largely wasted unless it fit within the confines of a degree program (much like the band credit is wasted for the most part).

UC basketball players aren't disparaged for not completing their criminal justice degree. UC itself is disparaged for participating in a system that pretends that athletes are students but then doesn't actually treat them like students.

[qsilvr2531]

I should rephrase my last statement. UC basketball players shouldn't be disparaged for not completing their criminal justice degree, but that doesn't mean they aren't. Sometimes they are which IMO is complaining about the result rather than the process.

[Oldtimer_UC_fan]

First, I believe I said that if someone can create a legitimate basketball program that would be approved there would be nothing preventing a scholarship athlete from taking that major. It would take more than "show up at your extracuricular and perform the required tasks" though (or do you think that is all CCM majors do?). It would also have to be open to the public (not just players on basketball scholarships) like those CCM programs are and would thus have more than 13 other students. It is unlikely Mick and his assistants would be able to teach all (or maybe even any) of the courses due to his already extremely demanding schedule (if he barely has time to see his children now, I don't think he can be expected to take on teaching responsibilities beyond his coaching) so UC would need to hire other basketball coaches to teach courses (something Mick might not like if they are teaching things contrary to his philosophy, so he'd need to be involved in the hiring/firing process). I think a program could probably be created, but I don't think there is enough interest (beyond the 13 people on campus that have a chance at using the program in the future) in such a program for it to really work. Creating a program for 13 students without some crossover to other programs isn't going to happen though, it would need to be linked to other programs (like sports management or something).

Second, Basketball players get paid, by way of their scholarship, for the practice, conditioning, individual instruction, and the 30 games they play. They aren't being taught a class, they aren't being graded and that class isn't available to anyone except 13 students in the specific extracuricular activity. However, I would have no problem if coaches were allowed to give grades (or just pass/fail) for a 3 credit basketball class every winter quarter (much like CCM majors get credit for plays and band members get class credit for being in the band). What they do, however, is not the equivalent of a complete 4 year academic program that would lead to a degree, so that class credit would be largely wasted unless it fit within the confines of a degree program (much like the band credit is wasted for the most part).

UC basketball players aren't disparaged for not completing their criminal justice degree. UC itself is disparaged for participating in a system that pretends that athletes are students but then doesn't actually treat them like students.

I actually could see people who want to coach being interested in such a course. Don't you think High School coaches could benefit from it? It wouldn't have to be geared strictly for players with NBA aspirations.

[qsilvr2531]

I actually could see people who want to coach being interested in such a course. Don't you think High School coaches could benefit from it? It wouldn't have to be geared strictly for players with NBA aspirations.

If you tailored it right you could set up a coaching major that would work very well I think. It might also allow non-players an easier way into the coaching ranks if it weren't specifically geared towards players (though people that actually play basketbal would have an obvious advantage in the program).

[Josh Rexhausen]

I also took humanities and social sciences in my engineering program. I didn't take them to to make me a more well rounded person though, I did it because it was required to get my degree.

I don't question the value of learning at the university, I question the value of forcing someone to learn at a university when they clearly have no desire to. Oden didn't take classes to learn or to become a more well rounded person, he took them so he could remain eligible for long enough to solidify his position as the #1 or #2 pick in the draft. If the NCAA is then going to give OSU credit for him as a student, why bother making him go to class in the first place?

You are making my point. I took H&S because I had to, these players have to take classes too. The H&S classes were a waste in my opinion, I would have rather taken other engineering classes that could have helped me now, just like these players would rather work on their game instead of go to class.

I think the NCAA uses these kids and blasts them when kids don't do what they want them to do (stay 4 years). If a guy stays eligible with pretty good grades (not just passing or just making the cut) and then decides to pursue his profession, the school should get at least half credit, maybe even 3/4, after all he is a success if he is now a professional athlete doing the same thing the NCAA had him do while they made millions from him (and others) doing it.

[qsilvr2531]

You are making my point. I took H&S because I had to, these players have to take classes too. The H&S classes were a waste in my opinion, I would have rather taken other engineering classes that could have helped me now, just like these players would rather work on their game instead of go to class.

I think the NCAA uses these kids and blasts them when kids don't do what they want them to do (stay 4 years). If a guy stays eligible with pretty good grades (not just passing or just making the cut) and then decides to pursue his profession, the school should get at least half credit, maybe even 3/4, after all he is a success if he is now a professional athlete doing the same thing the NCAA had him do while they made millions from him (and others) doing it.

The NCAA isn't "blasting" the kids, they are "blasting" the universities (and by blasting of course, we are talking about punishment) that choose to sign kids that don't have any interest in going to school, which is well within the NCAA's rights. Schools shouldn't get credit for signing kids with no intention of sticking around, there is already plenty of incentive to do that. Please point me to the NCAA memo where they blast Greg Oden for anything.

Lets be clear, you can't have it both ways. If the NCAA is using these kids to make millions of dollars then these kids can't be benefiting from what the NCAA is doing. Yet Greg Oden choose OSU over playing in Europe or the developmental league. Obviously the NCAA is providing something of value to the players as well. He used the NCAA to help him make millions of dollars. Lesser players use the NCAA to get a free opportunity at a degree. Suggesting that Oden was a successfull student just because he passed History of Jazz and Pop (or whatever dance course he was taking) is an insult to actual students. Oden was never a student at OSU, he was a basketball player. That's fine for him, he never wanted to be anything else. But OSU shouldn't benefit from pretending he was anything other than a basketball player (and giving him bonus credit for making the NBA is doing exactly that).

[MikeInClifton]

If you tailored it right you could set up a coaching major that would work very well I think. It might also allow non-players an easier way into the coaching ranks if it weren't specifically geared towards players (though people that actually play basketball would have an obvious advantage in the program).

Like this? (http://www.uakron.edu/colleges/educ/SportScience/coaching.php)

[mills]

Schools like Ohio State seem to avoid the penalties associated with NCAA rules, whereas the bearcats seem to get the whole bull, horns and all. If OSU loses all three of the players that have decleared (which seems unlikely) by my count they would be in line to lose at least one, maybe two scholarships next year. Again, maybe Yancey Gates coach does know something that we dont ;)

[nachoman91]

First, I believe I said that if someone can create a legitimate basketball program that would be approved there would be nothing preventing a scholarship athlete from taking that major. It would take more than "show up at your extracuricular and perform the required tasks" though (or do you think that is all CCM majors do?). It would also have to be open to the public (not just players on basketball scholarships) like those CCM programs are and would thus have more than 13 other students.

This is not true. I had to apply to get into my major. In the same manner that a person applies to get into an Engineering or Medical program, a student would have to apply to get into the Basketball program. In addition, the classes that pertained to my major were limited in class size and those in the major are given first chance before the class is then filled with those not in the major.

[qsilvr2531]

This is not true. I had to apply to get into my major. In the same manner that a person applies to get into an Engineering or Medical program, a student would have to apply to get into the Basketball program. In addition, the classes that pertained to my major were limited in class size and those in the major are given first chance before the class is then filled with those not in the major.

Sure, you have to apply, but you don't have to be on scholarship and you don't have to participate in a particular extracuricular activity (and the programs aren't limited to 13 total students, though they may limit the number of incoming students). UC isn't going to create a basketball major that only accepts players on an athletic scholarship. You'd be talking about a 4 year program with maybe 10 students total (since not all basketball players are going to choose to take the degree) with minimal crossover with other programs. It sounds great, just give them course credit for playing basketball, but there is a world of difference between giving someone course credit for an extracuricular and creating a degree program from scratch.