Sorry but I must respond to the post on Black coaches

[jadam222]

I have been a member here for quite some time. However, I had let my posting privilege expire and had to wait to respond just to find out the thread was closed. As an African American, I had to put my dissappointment in this type a thread aside and try to repond accordingly. The first thing I would ask is what would motivate someone to start this thread in the first place? That is something for "ENDZONE" to realize as I have my own thoughts about that. There is a both a fundamental and immoral issue with any sport to have a representation of 60-70% of a racial group participating on the field but almost no representation in the head coaching ranks. Although there was a time when the reason was based totally on race, I do not believe that is the sole reason anymore. Just like in business and society in general, people tend to associate with those like them. Therefore, many of those opportunities are given to those who are like them. This does not mean that the hired candidate was the best for the job. It just means that they may have been the best in the small pool of candidates that was like the person doing the hiring. As far as the person stating where are the incidents of people being denied, that should be common sense. If there are only 4 black coaches in college football, someone is being denied the opportunity. There was a time that was the case in the NFL as well. That is why they started the coach training programs for minorities. It gave owners and coaches the opportunity to know potential candidates. That is why we had Dungy, Lewis, Smith, etc. They got a chance. The same chance that was being given to others. Also, lets stop speaking of affirmative action as if its a benefit to African Americans. If you did your homework you would know that the real benefactors of affirmative action was/is white women. That does not mean that they have reached the ranks of white men but they were also given those diversity opportunities in business over blacks too. Take a look at the statistics of executive management. It does not mean more women or racial minorities are not more qualified than many of the white males in those roles. In many cases, they were not even given the opportunity - even when they are brighter and qualified. I have personally not ever benefited from any special treatment. In fact, I found my road even tougher due to my racial background. I had to prove myself just a "tad" more as those with biases tend to judge you by the cover and not the content. It takes them awhile to begin "reading the pages." So, I am offended that some seem to think that the road is easier for racial minorities. Believe it or not, most people do not want any special treatment. Most just want to be treated fairly. Also, I do not believe that any more qualified person should be passed over based solely on race. However, we must be careful on what the "more qualified" criteria is. If someone has a 3.9 with high scores and they are passed over by a person with a 2.5 that is one thing. However, if two people are close in credentials but one is underepresented that is another story. There are many other things that would go into a decision then. Before you start a response to that last statement think it through. It has been happening in reverse - and still does at times - for many years even when the minority or woman candidate would be considered "more qualified." So, this whole topic was about race. Therefore, so was my response.

[oldcat48]

Thank you for your insight, Jadam.

This is a problem at the coordinator level, imho. Why are there so many successful black college basketball coaches? Because they've sat in the VP chair, so to speak. They've had that "Top Assistant" experience, they've had the opportunity to become great recruiters. In short, they've learned the HC position by butting right up to it.

Football is not so much the case. There are two paths to head coaching jobs in college football: O and D coordinators and lower level HC jobs. And guess who gets the lower level HC jobs. Coordinators!

My strong suggestion is the BCA move down a level in their scrutiny to the head coaches and try to work with them to move the talented blacks on their staffs into the coordinator roles. ADs won't risk their own careers on someone unproven or lower level on the coaching charts. Interviewing some black candidates might help a little, but unless the candidates are also top assistants, the AD can't and probably shouldn't make that hire.

And Endzone, the NFL coaches were not hired because they were black, but they were at least given the opportunity to interview because they were black, and thus could be FAIRLY compared to all other white candidates. If you can't even get an interview, you sure can't get the job.

[jadam222]

oldcat48, I agree with you on your response that its a coordinator issue as well. However, the same criteria of people allowing opportunities still holds true. Meaning going "outside" just the small pool you are familiar with. With that stated, I believe things are changing. When you take a look at college coaching staffs, there are usually a few coaches of color there. Unfortunately, it will still take more time. One might take comfort in that statement but look how long Dungy, Smith, Lewis, etc had to put in to get an NFL chance. Now take a look at Kiffin, Harbaugh, etc. - not exactly fair. If you knew me personally, you would know that I do not live my life based on race. That is a small part of each of us - but unfortunately there are those who put more emphasis on it in a negative way. This world is getting better and there is much progress being made. We all should be trying to improve it. By the way, the other reason for the NFL requiring the interview of a minority candidate is just to give that candidate a "feel" for what the owners want. It also closes the gap of another owner knowing a possible future candidate. For the record, there has not been any black coach hired just because of their race. However, there has been many denied the opportunity because of that fact. I am not stating that it was blatant because I don't believe it is meant in most cases. It just goes back to allowing opportunities - and as you stated oldcat48 - throughout the coaching structure. The NFL has made a lot of progress. Why this has not translated over into the college ranks is an issue. When I first read ENDZONE's comments, it almost sounded as if he was stating that minorities do not have the aptitude to coach. I will give him the benefit of doubt because surely he did not mean that - right? There was a time when it was publicly stated that blacks cannot become quarterbacks or coach. Well, Doug Williams, Tony Dungy, Lovie Smith, Marvin Lewis (yes I said it), etc, are not the exceptions. There are many others waiting for there chance. The chance that seems to come easier for others. As they say, "it is what it is" but that does not mean that we cannot start to right some wrongs. There are minority candidates in college football that just have not had the chance as-of-yet. It is kind of ironic that the institution of higher learning - generally considered more liberal - would be the laggard in the hiring of minority coaches in college football. You know what? Many companies have started to realize that of they continue to exclude it will be to their own peril. That talent will go to a competitor. It also could impact the bottom line when some minorities find out the bank they deal with denies opportunities. What do you think will happen? They will "pull" their money out. This holds true for other businesses as well. What do you think will happen to universities' athletic programs when recruits and their parents start to take a deeper look at that as well? If I had a 5 Star son, the school better at least have a plan that demonstrates that they are addressing this issue. I am not stating that they have to be the head coach. However, I would expect some minority assistant (qualified as they would be anyway or the coach would not hire them) that is being mentored. Sooner or later this will begin to be an issue - as it should be - in recruiting. If I am good enough to play for the school, I should at least be given an opportunity to coach one day. Now let me be clear on this. This statement does not mean every minority athlete will be a qualified coach one day - just as every white athlete will not be. To think things just happen with no plan is a bit niave given the history of this country. I do believe for most of us race does not enter the equation in the hiring. However, one must realize that the field is not yet even and we do need to put programs like mentoring in place to allow others the opportunity to gain some of the required credentials.

[Matt1982]

The whole concept of "representation" is a farce. I don't care if in 10 years the entire NFL is made up of all asian people. Becoming a coach is just like becoming president, it's all about who you are and where you came from. It has nothing to do with race or gender. It's simply a coincidence that there are only so many minority coaches. What I don't understand is why people think that "representation" matters. I'm a white male, if I'm playing on a team or even just in a league as a whole, I don't care what color or gender the coaches tend to be. Life is about who you are and what you luck into when it comes to these sorts of ranks. We just have to deal with it but by trying to enforce representation standards, you essentially become discriminatory.

I know this shouldn't be about race, but I've been trying to get a job with the city of Cincinnati, and I won't say who, but someone literally told me within the City that "you're not the right color and you're not the right sex" to get a job here. Did I get mad? No, that's just what America has turned into, and I just have to deal with it. Do the best with what you can do, whining and moaning about it only makes it worse.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

The whole concept of "representation" is a farce. I don't care if in 10 years the entire NFL is made up of all asian people. Becoming a coach is just like becoming president, it's all about who you are and where you came from. It has nothing to do with race or gender. It's simply a coincidence that there are only so many minority coaches. What I don't understand is why people think that "representation" matters. I'm a white male, if I'm playing on a team or even just in a league as a whole, I don't care what color or gender the coaches tend to be. Life is about who you are and what you luck into when it comes to these sorts of ranks. We just have to deal with it but by trying to enforce representation standards, you essentially become discriminatory.

I know this shouldn't be about race, but I've been trying to get a job with the city of Cincinnati, and I won't say who, but someone literally told me within the City that "you're not the right color and you're not the right sex" to get a job here. Did I get mad? No, that's just what America has turned into, and I just have to deal with it. Do the best with what you can do, whining and moaning about it only makes it worse.

Whomever told you that (in quotes) broke the law. I'd report them.

[oldcat48]

Matt, I think the point is that there are so many black assistant football coaches - why are so few of them becoming head coaches? It's a valid question if you're the race that only a few years ago couldn't eat at the same lunch counter or use the same restrooms or had to ride at the back of the bus. It was second-class citizenship in our country - a caste system - and these things take time to work out and disappear.

Yes, you (and I!) are being discriminated against in a way because of society wanting that discrimination to disappear. And I get your point to a degree. But the source of this discrimination against white males is completely different from the historical source of the relatively recent discrimination against black males. I'd take our discrimination experience over theirs any day.

Look, asians are overrepresented in engineering, not because they're brighter than whites, but because their culture pushes education in a way ours does not (overall, of course). But now that fact should show, even more brightly, why it's an issue to have UNDER representation of minority head football coaches: they're OVER represented in the lower coaching levels on BCS teams. They're UNDER represented as coordinators and head coaches. There's a gap there, and it provokes a big question.

[Matt1982]

Yes I know that wasn't a legal comment made to me, but honestly, how does it benefit me to make a big stink about it? Some things are better off left alone. I'm a little soon to be college grad and they are the big bad business. I don't want to work for anyone that has that mentality anyhow. So hopefully I can take my education and skills elsewhere.

Something I find troubling too, when colleges or professional teams hire a minority simply to satisfy the representation concept, we've done an injustice to the system. You don't hire ANYONE for ANY position for anything other than skill and qualifications, but, as well all know, that's just not how it works sometimes.

[jlr1523]

.....lets stop speaking of affirmative action as if its a benefit to African Americans. If you did your homework you would know that the real benefactors of affirmative action was/is white women...... Also, I do not believe that any more qualified person should be passed over based solely on race. However, we must be careful on what the "more qualified" criteria is........So, this whole topic was about race. Therefore, so was my response.

Affirmative action does benefit African Americans. The Cincinnati Police hire you if you are a black man, black woman, or white woman based on just that. It doesn't matter what you score on the written test. That is a proven fact. White men get passed over in huge numbers for people who aren't on the same educational level, or physical fitness level just to meet a specific number based on race. And who suffers from this hiring strategy??? Everyone does. Fire departments hire the same way. It should always be "the best man for the job" wheather we're talking about college football or whatever else.

[jadam222]

jrl1523 stated
"Affirmative action does benefit African Americans. The Cincinnati Police hire you if you are a black man, black woman, or white woman based on just that. It doesn't matter what you score on the written test. That is a proven fact. White men get passed over in huge numbers for people who aren't on the same educational level, or physical fitness level just to meet a specific number based on race. And who suffers from this hiring strategy??? Everyone does. Fire departments hire the same way. It should always be "the best man for the job" wheather we're talking about college football or whatever else."

jrl...I am not stating that they never benefit. I was trying to convey that at least in the business ranks they have not benefited as much as people try to state. Also, I do remember a few years back when the Cincy Police and Fire departments - as well as city in general - practices were brought to public. First, there were times people were upset because they might have scored 94 on a test when someone else scored a 92. Get real, that does not make one more qualified than the other - even if it was 94 vs 84. There are other tangibles. Now I do not believe you had some out of shape barely able to communicate minority or women candidates chosen over some Herculean Rhodes scholar. Mentally, they are all capable. Physically, lets not talk about the ,any fine men and women on the force who would be challenged to keep up with a criminal or carry someone out of a burning building. I do not make these statements to minimize the issues. They are indeed complex and I did state previously that I don't agree with blatant discrimination no matter what race. I do find it funny that you mention "Affirmative action does benefit African Americans. The Cincinnati Police hire you if you are a black man, black woman, or white woman based on just that. It doesn't matter what you score on the written test. That is a proven fact. White men get passed over in huge numbers for people who aren't on the same educational level, or physical fitness level just to meet a specific number based on race. And who suffers from this hiring strategy??? Everyone does. Fire departments hire the same way. It should always be "the best man for the job" wheather we're talking about college football or whatever else.". Now we are all back to square one - what about the women? - I could not resist... ;-)

[oldcat48]

Well if a hiring is made 100%, completely, on a test score then you have a point. My hunch is that even in the hiring of city police officers or even regular city employees that there is an arbitrary portion of the decision. You can't quantify that area.

Just because you score higher on an entrance exam doesn't mean you will work harder than the guy who scored below you. It doesn't mean you will get along with your co-workers. It doesn't mean you will use better judgment on the job. It doesn't mean you will relate to the people you deal with every day. If the city of Cincinnati wants more minorities in their work force or their police force, I think there might be valid reasons for that, test scores notwithstanding.

Because of our (white male) upbringing, education, and prior advantages (let's not even debate this) we come to the table more prepared. So when does that change? Our kids then see our jobs, and they aspire to our level. So our kids get all of the next wave of jobs? Affirmative action policies affect change for the future, not for today.

Anyway, you guys are confusing Affirmative Action with the problem of not enough minority coaches in college football. See, there is no AA plan for college coaches, so your debating AA here is nonsensical.

And there are a LOT of blacks on college coaching staffs. So you tell me, why are they not getting the coordinator positions in football (but do get the equivalent in basketball, and get head coach jobs in basketball)?

[Ran513]

The whole concept of "representation" is a farce. I don't care if in 10 years the entire NFL is made up of all asian people. Becoming a coach is just like becoming president, it's all about who you are and where you came from. It has nothing to do with race or gender. It's simply a coincidence that there are only so many minority coaches. What I don't understand is why people think that "representation" matters. I'm a white male, if I'm playing on a team or even just in a league as a whole, I don't care what color or gender the coaches tend to be. Life is about who you are and what you luck into when it comes to these sorts of ranks. We just have to deal with it but by trying to enforce representation standards, you essentially become discriminatory.

I know this shouldn't be about race, but I've been trying to get a job with the city of Cincinnati, and I won't say who, but someone literally told me within the City that "you're not the right color and you're not the right sex" to get a job here. Did I get mad? No, that's just what America has turned into, and I just have to deal with it. Do the best with what you can do, whining and moaning about it only makes it worse.

are you serious, you can really compare that to being a minority in a majority driven world,(some oppression is economic, not racial), do you know how many days out of their lives minorities are the" wrong color" dont trivialize a problem with someones ignorant statement. You just received a SMALL taste of what its like to be turned away before even starting.IT was not right, it should not happen, but it did, and will again because not enough people "whine and moan" for equality.please dont disrespect the history of minorities in this country, "some one told me once" is not quite the same.

[jlr1523]

Clearly this discussion has gotten a little off topic.

[jlr1523]

[QUOTE=jadam222;42743]
......Now I do not believe you had some out of shape barely able to communicate minority or women candidates chosen over some Herculean Rhodes scholar. Mentally, they are all capable. Physically, lets not talk about the ,any fine men and women on the force who would be challenged to keep up with a criminal or carry someone out of a burning building.......
I didn't say they were not mentally capable. I didn't say that at all. What I did say, and it is true, that many candidates scored high on the academics (im talking mid 90's compared to low 70's, not just a few % pts) (and yes, i've seen it happen with my own eyes) and also not fair as well on physical tests at the same time. People get passed over in favor of others who scored lower in both areas. How can you justify that?? I don't care if all police officers and college football coaches are black. If they are more qualified, they should get the position. It should be that way with any job. Discrimination is wrong either way. Wheather its reverse discrimination or not, it is wrong

[jadam222]

jrl stated "I didn't say they were not mentally capable. I didn't say that at all. What I did say, and it is true, that many candidates scored high on the academics (im talking mid 90's compared to low 70's, not just a few % pts) (and yes, i've seen it happen with my own eyes) and also not fair as well on physical tests at the same time. People get passed over in favor of others who scored lower in both areas. How can you justify that?? I don't care if all police officers and college football coaches are black. If they are more qualified, they should get the position. It should be that way with any job. Discrimination is wrong either way. Wheather its reverse discrimination or not, it is wrong"

I already stated that I think it is wrong in some cases. However, in the case of fire and police I am not so sure it is as relevant. For many years others were denied. So, do we just keep allowing that to happen because of a test? If they totally flunk that is one thing but to say one is more qualified as an officer or fire fighter because they scored even 20 points higher on an exam does not really "hold water" in that occupation. Did you know that generalized and aptitude tests are considered biased? I am not referring to the math portion but some of the scenarios and such are verbalized in a way that puts some at a disadvantage. That is a fact. Does that mean that people should not get a "grip" on the mainstream educational standards? No. However, it does mean that I am not overly concerned about that test score unless the person is just illiterate. We have as a nation just elected an African American president. I acknowledge that his racial makeup is biracial but so is just about 90% of African Americans if you did not know this. I only mention that because I hear many whites wanting to make the claim as well when its Tiger Woods or now Barack. However, if you did not know their accomplishments and either were just walking the streets they would be considered Black. I am by the way more Cherokee than Black or White but I am considered African American. I diverse...but the real point here was that we are getting to a point were we will just be looking at each other as people and not by race - not that cultural awareness should go away whether you are Irish, Italian, Hispanic, etc. That is what makes this world so wonderful. Yes, it is unfortunate if someone who is truly more qualified loses out on an opportunity based on race regardless of whom they might be. However, I think we need to go further than just using the example of a test as the basis for qualification. They were all qualified and the under representation of the force due to past practices was a key reason to level the field a bit. In the future, this will not need to happen - eventually. One quick example is my own children. Due to the sacrifices that were made for me and now I make for them, they can compete with anyone. It takes time to right the wrongs of the past. However, I don't believe in reverse discrimination either. It just those who "beat that drum" sometimes are trying to make that case based on an aptitude test. The issue is far more complex. I would be happy to meet someday over a beverage and speak with anyone. For now, I will end this thread where I am concerned. I just wanted to address the original post that was very off base. - imo

[BearcatDAN]

What has any of this got to do with the price of oil in America? :-)

Two things:
1. We will always have problems - we are human! We must continue to strive to be better!!
2. It has been more than just a few years ago since separate bathrooms were the norm for anyone other than male/female. In fact we have family bathrooms now!!

Finally......it's great to be a Bearcat.....football fan!!!

[Cincinnatisportsfanatic]

What about us italians and irish that were oppressed in the 30's.. Oh yea we italians picked up tommy guns and blasted our way out of it..

[jadam222]

What about us italians and irish that were oppressed in the 30's.. Oh yea we italians picked up tommy guns and blasted our way out of it..

I will drink wine and Guiness with you as well... ;-) Hey, I am part Irish as well. How else do you think I get the name Adams..... I am still waiting on my casino though....

[MikeInClifton]

Folks,

The General Discussion Board is about general UC athletics topics. This includes the athletic administration and sports other than basketball and football.

This topic does not fit into the format and will be closed soon. However the conversation is good and maybe you can make one last comment.

If we admins had more time or money to manage the board, maybe we can open it up more, but we dont have either.

Suggestion for all - Yappi and JJHuddle both have active and more open ended boards about such topics.

jadam22 - thanks for the well thought out post.
Suggestion #2 - I suggest more punctuation - specifically the use of a new paragraph on occasion - to make your writings easier to read.

[jadam222]

Folks,

The General Discussion Board is about general UC athletics topics. This includes the athletic administration and sports other than basketball and football.

This topic does not fit into the format and will be closed soon. However the conversation is good and maybe you can make one last comment.

If we admins had more time or money to manage the board, maybe we can open it up more, but we dont have either.

Suggestion for all - Yappi and JJHuddle both have active and more open ended boards about such topics.

jadam22 - thanks for the well thought out post.
Suggestion #2 - I suggest more punctuation - specifically the use of a new paragraph on occasion - to make your writings easier to read.

Thanks for allowing the discussion and I will take the suggestion.

[Endzone]

Jadam222:

1. Don't care if you're offended by what I say. Everyone is responsible whether or not they allow themselves to be offended, and your flesh loves to be offended so don't blame that on me. Blame that on yourself.

2. Stop calling yourself a frickin "African American". You're a black guy living in America and you've been indoctrinated as a black guy living in America. And if you're a black guy whose been born and raised in Cincy....wow. I'll tell you who "African Americans" are. There is a large electronic retailer called Fry's Electronics, and they hire a LOT of gold coast Africans who have recently immigrated here from such places as Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, etc. Their attitude towards me when I go to the store is always very polite, "let me help you with that sir", or "let me carry it up for you sir". A black guy in America would never do that. You're a black guy. African Americans are the guys who have just arrived from Africa and don't have that spoiled, pampered, babied and entitlement attitude that probably the majority of black guys in America do. And I don't necessarily blame that on black guys, because a lot of it is the dems in the U.S. government who demand a lock on the black vote and have sold you out.

Now, regarding black coaches. My point has always been, and continues to be that just because blacks dominate the football field and basketball court, doesn't mean they should necessarily dominate the coaching ranks. There are differences between blacks and whites, etc. just as there are differences between men and women and other races. There is some type of insidious "white guilt" that is being forced on white America that somehow we will never be fair to blacks unless blacks just have complete success in EVERY aspect of our culture. Quite honestly black head coaches have not done too well in college or pro football. Pro football will tell us the truth because ideology takes a back seat to wining. Wining is the only thing in pro football that matters. And it really isn't accurate to see how well blacks do in coaching unless their entire staff is black is it?

I'm not going to beat a dead horse here and Mike may lock this thread before I even get it posted, so I'll be brief. Do you want a straight across the board 12 or 13% stake in every job title in America for blacks? Do you want 13% black airline pilots? Do you want 13% black presidents? Do you want 13% black doctors? Do you want 13% black head football and basketball coaches? Are you willing to have most blacks removed from the football field and basketball court so that they are only 13%? 12 or 13% is the percentage of blacks in our population is it not? If you have 13% blacks on the basketball court that means you don't even have one black guy. On the football field I guess it would be 1 or 2 guys on each team. Would that be fair to you Jadam222?

Or , do you want to just keep things they way they are let folks do what they do best with their God given ability? Blacks consistenly score anywhere from 185 to 230 points lower on their SAT test than whites. I was astonished when I read that from several sources on the internet. But it is true. We are not all "equal" in all things.

Or, do you want to keep things the way they are and then kick and scream when you think blacks should dominate some particular job title in life that whites seem to do better? That's it isn't it?

jadam222, I've had my say. Really, I just wish you well. I know I can come off as an insensitive jerk about this. You have to understand that whites like myself aren't ever allowed to speak our mind about this subject except on rare occasions so please forgive me if I overdue it. Please forgive me if that's the case. I'm a Christian man, so I would only hope for you that you find yourself smack in the middle of God's will for your life. I don't think any human power (even if it's completely racist) can stop you from being where you should be if you think it's comletely submitted to God. I think it does take us a while and some searching to find out what our God given talents and abilities are. I'm 52, and still wonder at times.

[oldcat48]

Endzone, you make this so easy.

There is a direct correlation between socio-economic status and test scores. So gee - guess which ethnicity is mostly poor in America? Blacks!

Geesh, do you think Asians are smarter than whites? Seriously? Because the facts are that Asian Americans overwhelmingly score much higher than whites on standardized tests. You can't believe one without believing the other.

I hope you answer this question before the thread is closed.

[ewad]

I have been a member here for quite some time. However, I had let my posting privilege expire and had to wait to respond just to find out the thread was closed. As an African American, I had to put my dissappointment in this type a thread aside and try to repond accordingly. The first thing I would ask is what would motivate someone to start this thread in the first place? That is something for "ENDZONE" to realize as I have my own thoughts about that. There is a both a fundamental and immoral issue with any sport to have a representation of 60-70% of a racial group participating on the field but almost no representation in the head coaching ranks. Although there was a time when the reason was based totally on race, I do not believe that is the sole reason anymore. Just like in business and society in general, people tend to associate with those like them. Therefore, many of those opportunities are given to those who are like them. This does not mean that the hired candidate was the best for the job. It just means that they may have been the best in the small pool of candidates that was like the person doing the hiring. As far as the person stating where are the incidents of people being denied, that should be common sense. If there are only 4 black coaches in college football, someone is being denied the opportunity. There was a time that was the case in the NFL as well. That is why they started the coach training programs for minorities. It gave owners and coaches the opportunity to know potential candidates. That is why we had Dungy, Lewis, Smith, etc. They got a chance. The same chance that was being given to others. Also, lets stop speaking of affirmative action as if its a benefit to African Americans. If you did your homework you would know that the real benefactors of affirmative action was/is white women. That does not mean that they have reached the ranks of white men but they were also given those diversity opportunities in business over blacks too. Take a look at the statistics of executive management. It does not mean more women or racial minorities are not more qualified than many of the white males in those roles. In many cases, they were not even given the opportunity - even when they are brighter and qualified. I have personally not ever benefited from any special treatment. In fact, I found my road even tougher due to my racial background. I had to prove myself just a "tad" more as those with biases tend to judge you by the cover and not the content. It takes them awhile to begin "reading the pages." So, I am offended that some seem to think that the road is easier for racial minorities. Believe it or not, most people do not want any special treatment. Most just want to be treated fairly. Also, I do not believe that any more qualified person should be passed over based solely on race. However, we must be careful on what the "more qualified" criteria is. If someone has a 3.9 with high scores and they are passed over by a person with a 2.5 that is one thing. However, if two people are close in credentials but one is underepresented that is another story. There are many other things that would go into a decision then. Before you start a response to that last statement think it through. It has been happening in reverse - and still does at times - for many years even when the minority or woman candidate would be considered "more qualified." So, this whole topic was about race. Therefore, so was my response.

I read a very interesting article on this subject by Jason Whitlock. He is a former college football player. He is African American and talks about some of the factors that have kept more African American head coaches from happening.
http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/8762902/Black-coaches-need-to-pick-the-right-jobs

I'm curious what you think about what he has to say.

[jadam222]

Jadam222:

1. Don't care if you're offended by what I say. Everyone is responsible whether or not they allow themselves to be offended, and your flesh loves to be offended so don't blame that on me. Blame that on yourself.

2. Stop calling yourself a frickin "African American". You're a black guy living in America and you've been indoctrinated as a black guy living in America. And if you're a black guy whose been born and raised in Cincy....wow. I'll tell you who "African Americans" are. There is a large electronic retailer called Fry's Electronics, and they hire a LOT of gold coast Africans who have recently immigrated here from such places as Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Cameroon, etc. Their attitude towards me when I go to the store is always very polite, "let me help you with that sir", or "let me carry it up for you sir". A black guy in America would never do that. You're a black guy. African Americans are the guys who hahat spoiled, pampered, babied and entitlement attitude that probably the majority of black guys in America do. And I don't necessarilyve just arrived from Africa and don't have t blame that on black guys, because a lot of it is the dems in the U.S. government who demand a lock on the black vote and have sold you out.

Now, regarding black coaches. My point has always been, and continues to be that just because blacks dominate the football field and basketball court, doesn't mean they should necessarily dominate the coaching ranks. There are differences between blacks and whites, etc. just as there are differences between men and women and other races. There is some type of insidious "white guilt" that is being forced on white America that somehow we will never be fair to blacks unless blacks just have complete success in EVERY aspect of our culture. Quite honestly black head coaches have not done too well in college or pro football. Pro football will tell us the truth because ideology takes a back seat to wining. Wining is the only thing in pro football that matters. And it really isn't accurate to see how well blacks do in coaching unless their entire staff is black is it?

I'm not going to beat a dead horse here and Mike may lock this thread before I even get it posted, so I'll be brief. Do you want a straight across the board 12 or 13% stake in every job title in America for blacks? Do you want 13% black airline pilots? Do you want 13% black presidents? Do you want 13% black doctors? Do you want 13% black head football and basketball coaches? Are you willing to have most blacks removed from the football field and basketball court so that they are only 13%? 12 or 13% is the percentage of blacks in our population is it not? If you have 13% blacks on the basketball court that means you don't even have one black guy. On the football field I guess it would be 1 or 2 guys on each team. Would that be fair to you Jadam222?

Or , do you want to just keep things they way they are let folks do what they do best with their God given ability? Blacks consistenly score anywhere from 185 to 230 points lower on their SAT test than whites. I was astonished when I read that from several sources on the internet. But it is true. We are not all "equal" in all things.

Or, do you want to keep things the way they are and then kick and scream when you think blacks should dominate some particular job title in life that whites seem to do better? That's it isn't it?

jadam222, I've had my say. Really, I just wish you well. I know I can come off as an insensitive jerk about this. You have to understand that whites like myself aren't ever allowed to speak our mind about this subject except on rare occasions so please forgive me if I overdue it. Please forgive me if that's the case. I'm a Christian man, so I would only hope for you that you find yourself smack in the middle of God's will for your life. I don't think any human power (even if it's completely racist) can stop you from being where you should be if you think it's comletely submitted to God. I think it does take us a while and some searching to find out what our God given talents and abilities are. I'm 52, and still wonder at times.

ENDZONE, wow where do I begin with this? First, your post is not only insensitive as you stated but pretty much a bunch of nonsense. I am very comfortable "in my skin" and know exactly who and what I am. I do not need you to inform me. As I stated, I have several races in my background - Black, White and Indian. However, in this country I am considered Black or African American. I could care less which I am classified under but I do not speak for all Blacks or African Americans. There is a reason for the African American classification but somehow I think you would not get that so I will leave it alone.

In addition, I am a proud American and I love this country. I served in the military and pretty much would have ended up dying for this country in my occupation. I have made my life very successful and I did it on my own. As far as the racist statement you made about all African Americans or Blacks having a spoiled, pampered,babied and entitlement attitude, that could not be further from the truth. The vast majority of Blacks (AA) are hard working people. Just like any race there will be some people who are not. You cannot make statements that put a whole group of people into a category. Maybe it is just you and your attitudes that lead you to believe otherwise.

You go on to spill "garbage" about test scores as that is the way to judge intelligence or even more racist superiority. Well, there are lots of factors that go into that. The most prevalent is the environment of the test takers - I wonder how poor White Appalachians would score or do you not consider them White?. Some probably have a better learning environment than others. I personally scored quite well on my tests. I graduated from UC's business college and I went on to grad school and earned my MBA. I also achieved the executive ranks at several corporations and was considered a "star" in each company I worked. I do not know what you have achieved in life but you seem bitter. Just like you stated, don't feel as if you were entitled to anything. If it is God's will for you to be misinformed and a bigot, I guess you decided to embrace that and appear to be pretty good at it.

It is very ironic that you consider yourself a Christian. Being the son of a minister as well, I find your comments, attitude and outlook to be far from that. However, go ahead and keep telling yourself that.

I have never thought or stated that Blacks (or African Americans - I state Blacks because you appear threatened by the later), should dominate anything. If you are not bright enough to at least ponder if there is an issue or not I cannot help you. It is not the fact that someone is a minority therefore they should get something. However, if you have qualified people - and you do - they should at least be given a fair shot. This especially holds true when that particular group is "busting their heads" on the field - apparently even for the bigots as yourself or you would not have the moniker "ENDZONE."

I do believe that we had a Superbowl a couple years ago with two black coaches. It is not that they are the exception. They just got a chance. Your comment that whites do better is ignorant and again racist. You cannot judge the ability of a race to do something based on a couple who did not do well. There are a lot of college coaches - 99% white. Some are successful, many are not. It would be the same for any coach regardless the race. Your statement about the coaching staff would have to be all black should be the same in reverse. Would Gruden had won a Superbowl without the hard work Dungy had done there? Probably not. Would Baltimore had won the Superbowl without Marvin Lewis? Probably not. So, every other successful white coach on any team and any sport that employs a minority on their staff cannot take credit as well? That is an idiotic statement.

Now don't think I am calling you a bigot because my feelings are hurt or I expect something and you do not agree. As I stated, I am very successful. I am calling you a bigot because that is what you appear to be based on your comments.

I always feel that the best qualified should get a job or position. What most of us have been discussing on this thread is not giving someone a job or entitlement but at least allowing fairness in the process. Your anger and bigotry tends to leave you believing something else.

[jadam222]

I read a very interesting article on this subject by Jason Whitlock. He is a former college football player. He is African American and talks about some of the factors that have kept more African American head coaches from happening.
http://msn.foxsports.com/cfb/story/8762902/Black-coaches-need-to-pick-the-right-jobs

I'm curious what you think about what he has to say.

You know what? There is some truth to that. However, Jason tends to categorize the need to start smaller with just Black coaches. This holds true for all coaches. We only need to take a look at Charlie at ND. The need to pick the "right" job is valid for all as well. I think some of this can be circumvented by working as an assistant coach/coordinator on a BCS staff as well. It would probably be equivalent if not more relevant as starting at a small school as coach. You at least get to experience the issues at a BCS school and hopefully are allowed to have some "real" responsibility under your mentor - the coach.

[Joe C.]

ENDZONE, wow where do I begin with this? First, what your post is not only insensitive as you stated but pretty much a bunch of nonsense. I am very comfortable "in my skin" and know exactly who and what I am. I do not need you to inform me. As I stated, I have several races in my background - Black, White and Indian. However, in this country I am considered Black or African American. I could care less which I am classified under but I do not speak for all Blacks or African Americans. There is a reason for the African American classification but somehow I think you would not get that so I will leave it alone.

In addition, I am a proud American and I love this country. I served in the military and pretty much would have ended up dying for this country in my occupation. I have made my life very successful and I did it on my own. As far as the racist statement you made about all African Americans or Blacks having a spoiled, pampered,babied and entitlement attitude, that could not be further from the truth. The vast majority of Blacks (AA) are hard working people. Just like any race there will be some people who are not. You cannot make statements that put a whole group of people into a category. Maybe it is just you and your attitudes that bring the worst out of some people.

You go on to spill "garbage" about test scores as that is the way to judge intelligence or even more racist superiority. Well, there are lots of factors that go into that. The most prevalent is the environment of the test takers. Some probably have a better learning environment than others. I personally scored quite well on my tests. I graduated from UC's business college and I went on to grad school and earned my MBA. I also achieved the executive ranks at several corporations and was considered a "star" in each company I worked. I do not know what you have achieved in life but you seem bitter. Just like you stated, don't feel as if you were entitled to anything. If it is God's will for you to be misinformed and a bigot, I guess you decided to embrace that and appear to be pretty good at it.

It is very ironic that you consider yourself a Christian. Being the son of a minister as well, I find your comments, attitude and outlook to be far from that. However, go ahead and keep telling yourself that.

I have never thought or stated that Blacks (or African Americans - I state Blacks because you appear threatened by the later), should dominate anything. If you are not bright enough to at least ponder if there is an issue or not I cannot help you. It is not the fact that someone is a minority therefore they should get something. However, if you have qualified people - and you do - they should at least be given a fair shot. This especially holds true when that particular group is "busting their heads" on the field - apparently even for the bigots as yourself or you would not have the moniker "ENDZONE."

I do believe that we had a Superbowl a couple years ago with two black coaches. It is not that they are the exception. They just got a chance. Your comment that whites do better is ignorant and again racist. You cannot judge the ability of a race to do something based on a couple who did not do well. There are a lot of college coaches - 99% white. Some are successful, many are not. It would be the same for any coach regardless the race. Your statement about the coaching staff would have to be all black should be the same in reverse. Would Gruden had won a Superbowl without the hard work Dungy had done there? Probably not. Would Baltimore had won the Superbowl without Marvin Lewis? Probably not. So, every other successful white coach on any team and any sport that employs a minority on their staff cannot take credit as well? That is an idiotic statement.

Now don't think I am calling you a bigot because my feelings are hurt or I expect something and you do not agree. As I stated, I am very successful. I am calling you a bigot because that is what you appear to be based on your comments.

I always feel that the best qualified should get a job or position. What most of us have been discussing on this thread is not giving someone a job or entitlement but at least allowing fairness in the process. Your anger and bigotry tends to leave you believing something else.

Although I agree w/ most of your statements, I think that it 's unfair to categorize "endzone" as a bigot. His statements are not PC but to label him as a bigot b/c you do not agree is wrong.

[jadam222]

Although I agree w/ most of your statements, I think that it 's unfair to categorize "endzone" as a bigot. His statements are not PC but to label him as a bigot b/c you do not agree is wrong.

Joe, I am not being unfair. Let me put specific comments mentioned:


Stop calling yourself a frickin "African American". You're a black guy living in America and you've been indoctrinated as a black guy living in America. And if you're a black guy whose been born and raised in Cincy....wow.


Anger - yes; bitterness - yes; possible bigotry - yes


Their attitude towards me when I go to the store is always very polite, "let me help you with that sir", or "let me carry it up for you sir". A black guy in America would never do that. You're a black guy. African Americans are the guys who have just arrived from Africa and don't have that spoiled, pampered, babied and entitlement attitude that probably the majority of black guys in America do.


Anger - yes; Bitterness - yes; Bigotry - yes (even though the attempt to not sound this way is made by stating "probably the majority")

And I don't necessarily blame that on black guys, because a lot of it is the dems in the U.S. government who demand a lock on the black vote and have sold you out.


Idiotic - yes

There are differences between blacks and whites, etc. just as there are differences between men and women and other races.


What is meant here? In the context of the paragraph it sounds like Bigotry again. What difference? One can only infer that it is meant as ability. If that is the case it is not only bigotry but racist as well.


Quite honestly black head coaches have not done too well in college or pro football. Pro football will tell us the truth because ideology takes a back seat to wining. Wining is the only thing in pro football that matters. And it really isn't accurate to see how well blacks do in coaching unless their entire staff is black is it?


not a very bright statement.


Or , do you want to just keep things they way they are let folks do what they do best with their God given ability? Blacks consistenly score anywhere from 185 to 230 points lower on their SAT test than whites. I was astonished when I read that from several sources on the internet. But it is true. We are not all "equal" in all things.


I will allow that this is an misinformed statement that touches bigotry.

Or, do you want to keep things the way they are and then kick and scream when you think blacks should dominate some particular job title in life that whites seem to do better? That's it isn't it?


Again, misinformed that borders on bigotry.

jadam222, I've had my say. Really, I just wish you well. I know I can come off as an insensitive jerk about this.


I won't disagree.


You have to understand that whites like myself aren't ever allowed to speak our mind about this subject except on rare occasions so please forgive me if I overdue it. Please forgive me if that's the case.


I am not surprised about any of it and I heard and experienced worse in my lifetime.

So, I do not think I was being unfair at all. What else would you call it? If a person makes a mistake and something comes out the wrong way that is one thing. However, when everything begins to be consistent then that is the makeup of that individual. They may not think they are but when you believe some of the things that ENDZONE does across the board, that appears to be bigotry. I have no issue with anyone who disagrees. That is healthy - although a "pain" sometimes. It is all the other things that ENDZONE shared that led me to believe that is what he is. For that matter, the initial thread that got all this started in the first place. What was the motivation there? Also, ENDZONE will not be offended...he stated so right here:

1. Don't care if you're offended by what I say. Everyone is responsible whether or not they allow themselves to be offended, and your flesh loves to be offended so don't blame that on me. Blame that on yourself.

It was not meant to offend anyway. I just stated the facts that he provided. If one reads his whole post, it sounds even more bigoted than the quotes.

[Joe C.]

Joe, I am not being unfair. Let me put specific comments mentioned:





Anger - yes; bitterness - yes; possible bigotry - yes





Anger - yes; Bitterness - yes; Bigotry - yes (even though the attempt to not sound this way is made by stating "probably the majority")




Idiotic - yes




What is meant here? In the context of the paragraph it sounds like Bigotry again. What difference? One can only infer that it is meant as ability. If that is the case it is not only bigotry but racist as well.




not a very bright statement.




I will allow that this is an misinformed statement that touches bigotry.




Again, misinformed that borders on bigotry.




I won't disagree.




I am not surprised about any of it and I heard and experienced worse in my lifetime.

So, I do not think I was being unfair at all. What else would you call it? If a person makes a mistake and something comes out the wrong way that is one thing. However, when everything begins to be consistent then that is the makeup of that individual. They may not think they are but when you believe some of the things that ENDZONE does across the board, that appears to be bigotry. I have no issue with anyone who disagrees. That is healthy - although a "pain" sometimes. It is all the other things that ENDZONE shared that led me to believe that is what he is. For that matter, the initial thread that got all this started in the first place. What was the motivation there? Also, ENDZONE will not be offended...he stated so right here:



It was not meant to offend anyway. I just stated the facts that he provided. If one reads his whole post, it sounds even more bigoted than the quotes.

All of your examples are subjective. Bigotry means different things to different people. There is anger here, but that does not necessarily mean that he hates blacks/AA.

[jadam222]

All of your examples are subjective. Bigotry means different things to different people. There is anger here, but that does not necessarily mean that he hates blacks/AA.

The same could be said about Marge Schott as well. I personally did not feel she hated Blacks. However, she was considered a bigot to many. Some people felt Jerimiah Wright was a bigot. I feel the same tone from ENDZONE as his. Many Whites felt that way about Mr. Wright because they felt he crossed the line. Bigotry is what Bigotry does. Let me state this again. It is not because ENDZONE agrees or does not agree. Quite frankly, that was not the issue in any of the posts. It is all about what is stated. According to definition bigotry is:

The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance.

http://www.answers.com/topic/bigotry

and another:

1) n. bigot: A bigot is someone who holds predefined negative views about a class of people.

A bigot does not neccessarily need to hate. It is beliefs. Now some people are wise enough to seek the correct answers...thereby overcoming most of the falsehoods...others do not or do not understand how. You do not need to use deragatory racial terms to be a bigot. I can also state in general, the comments made by ENDZONE would be considered bigotry or racist by most people of color - probably most Whites as well. This mainly holds true on his views of coaching, abilities, etc. Especially when you lump sum a whole group of people together based on your experience with a few or your preceived view of some stats without thinking it through but casting that a whole race of people is one way or another. That is bigotry at the minimum. It has nothing to do whether or not he agrees or does not agree. Right now you are debating me about this topic. Did I state you were one? Also, his comments are not subjective. You are giving him too much benefit of the doubt as I did on the initial start of the original thread.

[oldcat48]

Joe C, by your definition, we could never debate about anything, because what any word means is all so undefined and subjective.

Endzone's comments were just plum full of bigotry against blacks. I don't know how you could miss that unless you needed to twist it around so much that it became somehow palatable.

[jeffto]

The only reason some people have darker skin than others is biological. The closer your forebears lived to the equator, the darker your skin will be. It's due to the the body adapting to conditions and protecting the species. The biological functions within those bodies with different skin colors is identical - including brain functions.

Black, white or in between we are fundamentally all racists. It has been taught to us over many, many generations. There's a simple way to reverse it and each and every one of us has the power to do it -- Treat every person with the respect and dignity you would want shown you.

[jadam222]

The only reason some people have darker skin than others is biological. The closer your forebears lived to the equator, the darker your skin will be. It's due to the the body adapting to conditions and protecting the species. The biological functions within those bodies with different skin colors is identical - including brain functions.

Black, white or in between we are fundamentally all racists. It has been taught to us over many, many generations. There's a simple way to reverse it and each and every one of us has the power to do it -- Treat every person with the respect and dignity you would want shown you.


I agree with most of what you stated. I do not believe we are fundamentally that way. Not to be picky...I just view fundamental as being destined when we know it is a learned thing. I know I have overcome it - if I ever had it. One thing is true whether people believe it or not we are all "one" anyway. When we leave this place we will all - at least our bodies - go back to dust as they say. Life is too short. Even though I don't really think about it because I love them as people, many of my closest friends I consider "family" are White - other races too besides Black. I think it is so much to learn from all cultures and I live my life that way. So, you will find me at Greek Festivals, OctoberFest, etc.

[MikeInClifton]

As promised, I'm closing the thread.

See you on Yappi. . . . .

Mike