Zoned Out

[jbreeds1]

Did anyone else notice how inefficient we played against the 2-3 zone last night? We settled for a 3-point shot on almost every posession. I hate that our guards can't penetrate or take anyone off the dribble. If we aren't shooting lights-out against Boeheim and the Orange zone we will be in serious trouble.

[nachoman91]

I was just discussing this with a friend after the X game. UC really lacks guards who can penetrate. They really miss Cash for this. UC's entire offense seems to be pass round the perimeter and shoot a three of force it inside. I know Mick feels our big men are our strength so he is slowing the game down a bit but I think they need to be running and attacking more at the rim.

[CincyBeerCo]

I was just discussing this with a friend after the X game. UC really lacks guards who can penetrate. They really miss Cash for this. UC's entire offense seems to be pass round the perimeter and shoot a three of force it inside. I know Mick feels our big men are our strength so he is slowing the game down a bit but I think they need to be running and attacking more at the rim.

Dion showed some nice flashes penetrating last night.

[nolte50uc]

i agree 100%. another option is for the post guys to get the ball in the high post area and allow the guards to make cuts to the basket. one way or another, they need to get the ball in the middle somehow and make the defense actually have to do something.

[applegbt]

Did anyone else notice how inefficient we played against the 2-3 zone last night? We settled for a 3-point shot on almost every posession. I hate that our guards can't penetrate or take anyone off the dribble. If we aren't shooting lights-out against Boeheim and the Orange zone we will be in serious trouble.

I'm not sure I agree that they "can't" take the ball inside via penetration. You are correct in that they settled for 3-pointers. From where I sat, it appeared to me that they took quick shots and didn't even think about trying anything else. To me it came down to poor decision making rather than lack of ability.

[CincyBeerCo]

I'm not sure I agree that they "can't" take the ball inside via penetration. You are correct in that they settled for 3-pointers. From where I sat, it appeared to me that they took quick shots and didn't even think about trying anything else. To me it came down to poor decision making rather than lack of ability.

On night when the shots are not falling (12-27 I believe from behind the arc) you could call it bad decision making, but when they are falling and they continue to play a zone that allows you to shoot, I would suggest that continuing to take, and make, 3ptrs is GOOD decision making.

[psax889906]

Dion is coming into his own, he can penetrate and appears to have the strength and moxie to get his shot in the lane and/or get to the line... also, I think Alvin Mitchell has shown flashes at times, he just needs to attack the basket more and not settle for 3-pointers... if Alvin starts attacking the basket I think (and I'm serious) he could be just as dangerous offensively as Deonta... if not more dangerous...

[bearcatfan50]

Making the D collapse on the man at the free throw line is the key to success against the 2-3 and that can lead to open passing lanes in the post area and open 18 foot shots by the wing men and open threes.

[JasonS]

I disagree that we didn't play well against the zone last night. I think early on we went inside and Yancy dominated. This was against the 2-3 zone. Then, after Yancy was out with foul issues and the zone collapsed down low, the 3 point shot was open and was falling. A 3-point shot against the zone is not necessarily a bad shot. There were a couple bad shots last night, but the overwhelming majority of the shots from 3 were good, open looks that were created either by dribble pennetration or by playing inside out. By the way, Mississippi St. started making their comeback in the second half playing man to man, not zone. The Bearcats were effective enough offensively against the zone to make Mississippi St. feel they had to go man in the second half. Would it be nice to have Cash penetrating against the zone? Sure. But we don't have him this year. Dixon attacked the zone very well. Some people always need something to complain about, I guess.

[BearcatCJR23]

Was i watching a different game than most people on here??? In the first half, UC put on a clinic on how to beat a 2-3 zone. Quick passing, getting the ball to the middle of the zone or the post and kicking out for wide open 3s.....the 2nd half was a different story, but first half was close to perfect IMO.

[BeastUC]

Was i watching a different game than most people on here??? In the first half, UC put on a clinic on how to beat a 2-3 zone. Quick passing, getting the ball to the middle of the zone or the post and kicking out for wide open 3s.....the 2nd half was a different story, but first half was close to perfect IMO.

I agree with this statement.Plus MSU guys are not that tall when playing the zone so it was easy to see and shoot over them as opposed to teams who play zone with lengthy players.

[Irishbearcat]

Dion showed some nice flashes penetrating last night.

Yes he did, and it was nice.

[BeastUC]

Yes he did, and it was nice.

We are still talking about basketball,right?

[jbreeds1]

Was i watching a different game than most people on here??? In the first half, UC put on a clinic on how to beat a 2-3 zone. Quick passing, getting the ball to the middle of the zone or the post and kicking out for wide open 3s.....the 2nd half was a different story, but first half was close to perfect IMO.

Really??? The reason why teams play zone is to force the 3-point shot. Typically teams shoot a lower percentage from beyond the arc as opposed to in the paint. Also they might play zone if there is a considerable size disadvantage which was the case last night. Teams that can break the zone via driving into the paint or making back-door cuts are the ones who excel against the zone. You are correct that quick passes and kick-outs give you open 3s, but I prefer the higher percentage shots like lay-ups and dunks. No way is an open 3 a perfect way to beat the zone every time.

[BeastUC]

Really??? The reason why teams play zone is to force the 3-point shot. Typically teams shoot a lower percentage from beyond the arc as opposed to in the paint. Also they might play zone if there is a considerable size disadvantage which was the case last night. Teams that can break the zone via driving into the paint or making back-door cuts are the ones who excel against the zone. You are correct that quick passes and kick-outs give you open 3s, but I prefer the higher percentage shots like lay-ups and dunks. No way is an open 3 a perfect way to beat the zone every time.

Mick put Wilks in the game against the zone which i thought was good,but he made some questionable plays against it.
If the 3-point shots are open to the tune where u can shoot over them,then take it.Syracuse has lenghty players who get steals out of their 2-3 zone,MSU doesn't.

[carolinacatfan]

Really??? The reason why teams play zone is to force the 3-point shot. Typically teams shoot a lower percentage from beyond the arc as opposed to in the paint. Also they might play zone if there is a considerable size disadvantage which was the case last night. Teams that can break the zone via driving into the paint or making back-door cuts are the ones who excel against the zone. You are correct that quick passes and kick-outs give you open 3s, but I prefer the higher percentage shots like lay-ups and dunks. No way is an open 3 a perfect way to beat the zone every time.

I believe it depends a great deal on how the zone is applied. In last nights game MState packed the interior of the lane and therefore passing to the free throw line and kicking to open perimeter shooters is the correct initial attack. As CincyBeerco mentioned if the shots weren't falling a different tact would have been necessary. The Cuse applies utmost pressure to perimeter trying to contest threes and force errant entry passes most times. Totally different use of the zone. In watching the game I think we actually struggled more against the man pressure as we simply dribbled around too much instead of passing. As good as Vaughn is he needs to be pulled out and instructed when he gets dribbleitis like that.

8-2 with 12 to go then back to the dance.

[JasonS]

Really??? The reason why teams play zone is to force the 3-point shot. Typically teams shoot a lower percentage from beyond the arc as opposed to in the paint. Also they might play zone if there is a considerable size disadvantage which was the case last night. Teams that can break the zone via driving into the paint or making back-door cuts are the ones who excel against the zone. You are correct that quick passes and kick-outs give you open 3s, but I prefer the higher percentage shots like lay-ups and dunks. No way is an open 3 a perfect way to beat the zone every time.

Every team plays a 2-3 zone a little differently just like teams play man to man differently. What works against one zone, may not work against another teams. The person who used the Syracuse example was right on. Syracuse pressures teams out of the 2-3 zone forcing bad passes and contested shots. If you live with shooting contested threes against Syracuse, you will lose more times than not. MSU played a very compact zone. If you try to force things inside you will be more prone to turnovers. To beat that compact zone, UC had to make shots from the outside. You have to take what the defense gives you, especially against the zone and I think UC did a good job of recognizing where the ball needed to go to get the best shot.

[misterfresh]

I must have watched a different game.

Our perimiter players accounted for 51 of 75 points. Going 12-26 from three.

Certainly not all of that was against a 2-3, but a lot of it was. And if our offense was so ineffective versus zone, why didnt MSU stay in it the whole game? Word would be out by now, we are 10 games into the season. Teams would just zone us for 40 minutes if we were that inept offensively.

[jbreeds1]

I must have watched a different game.

Our perimiter players accounted for 51 of 75 points. Going 12-26 from three.

Certainly not all of that was against a 2-3, but a lot of it was. And if our offense was so ineffective versus zone, why didnt MSU stay in it the whole game? Word would be out by now, we are 10 games into the season. Teams would just zone us for 40 minutes if we were that inept offensively.


That's where the Syracuse reference at the first post comes in. The reason why MSU went away from it was because we were making our threes. We can't expect Dixon, Mitchell and Davis to be on every time we play against the zone. That's where the concern comes in. Orangemen will kill us if we can't get into the paint.

[misterfresh]

That's where the Syracuse reference at the first post comes in. The reason why MSU went away from it was because we were making our threes. We can't expect Dixon, Mitchell and Davis to be on every time we play against the zone. That's where the concern comes in. Orangemen will kill us if we can't get into the paint.

Why cant we expect them to be on?

UC is 4th in the Big East in 3-point percentage-.359
3rd in 3-pointers made per game-8.0
2nd in the Big East in offensive rebounds-16.1(so if we miss, we are capable of going and getting the rebound)

Larry Davis is 8th in the Big East in 3-point percentage-.429
Alvin Mitchell is 12th-.417
Deonta Vaughn is 7th in 3-pointers made per game-2.6
Mitchell 10th-2.0
Larry Davis 15th-1.8

Plus Vaughn is shooting at .351
And Dixon is at .276
I would expect both of those numbers to rise just a little.

We beat the scary Orange zone last year 74-66 (http://sports-att.espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=280092132)and only got 23 from the post.

[TmacGoCats]

When i played in high school we shot a ton of three pointers.

Our motto was: Making 34% of your three's equals making 50% of your two's.

So as long as were getting open shots, i dont mind shooting a ton of three's. Especially if were making at least 34% of them.

[London 'Cat]

Was i watching a different game than most people on here??? In the first half, UC put on a clinic on how to beat a 2-3 zone. Quick passing, getting the ball to the middle of the zone or the post and kicking out for wide open 3s.....the 2nd half was a different story, but first half was close to perfect IMO.

Couldn't agree more here. Their ball movement was excellent, finding open shooters and draining 9 3s in the first half. Simply outstanding. They finished 12 for 27 from 3 for the game, which is 44%. Pretty good, actually.