Another Perspective....

[UCamry]

Consider the following scoring averages for each season of these former Bearcat players.

From Lance's blog this morning....

Steve Logan: 8.9, 9.8, 17.6, 22.0
Bobby Brannen: 1.8, 5.0, 14.3
Jason Maxiell: 8.1, 11.9, 13.6, 15.3
Eric Hicks: 2.5, 7.0, 13.7, 15.0
Kenyon Martin: 2.8, 9.9, 10.1, 18.9

I have been harsh at times (mainly with Alvin Mitchell), but the development time that Bishop, Davis, Wilks, Gates, and Dixon have is significant.

Look at the horizon, not the front of the ship! We have 9 Freshmen and Sophomores on this team and only one senior that plays. UC will be both a basketball and football school in the very near future!

[Not Guilty]

Here is his entire post:

A great deal has been made about UC basketball's "young guys".
I talked with Sean Miller earlier this week about the composure his team kept during Fordham's run on Sunday. He mentioned it came from the juniors/seniors who have been there/done that and learned from the players before them at Xavier.
Sean discussed how Derrick Brown was a redshirt as a freshman because he wasn't ready to contribute. Now Derrick has expanded his game and has made more three pointers this year than he had made in his first two years combined. Sean mentioned that BJ Raymond started one game his first two seasons at XU and only 10 games in his first three years.
Ohio St coach Thad Matta talked this week about his young guys starting to figure out what playing hard means on this level, and understanding what they can and can't do.
I think the frustrated UC fans tend to look at their "young guys" as finished products.....players that are what they will be.....and as guys that should know what they don't know yet.
I talked last week about the chain of leadership being broken at UC. Nobody on this UC roster has experienced the "UC way" and success to pass on like a Logan-Hicks-Maxiell. Mick scrambled and had to use JUCO's to field a team in his first season. He wasn't going to take picked over talent and be saddled with it for four years. But that led to players like Gentry, Sikes and Warren leaving after two years....and leaving 9 freshmen and sophomores this year.
I started thinking about the progress made by some UC/XU players over the years....simply from a scoring standpoint.
Steve Logan: 8.9, 9.8, 17.6, 22.0
Bobby Brannen: 1.8, 5.0, 14.3
Jason Maxiell: 8.1, 11.9, 13.6, 15.3
Eric Hicks: 2.5, 7.0, 13.7, 15.0
Kenyon Martin: 2.8, 9.9, 10.1, 18.9
BJ Raymond: 3.4, 4.1, 9.9, 12.1
Derrick Brown: 6.3, 10.9, 14.1
I wonder if the frustrated UC fan leaves room for the development of skills and leadership and understanding of Big East basketball for the likes of Bishop, Davis, Dixon, Gates, etc?
Tonight will be interesting. UC raised the bar on their effort and physical play on Saturday vs UConn. Can they maintain that level again tonight..and take it on the road?

I'm not a huge fan of Lance, but I think he made a couple of very important points:

1.) These players have had no one to learn the Bearcat way from. I'm not sure that can be overstated. Where would a guy like Hicks have been if he didn't have Maxiell? Even with Maxiell, Hicks wasn't ready to play when he first arrived. That Bearcat team just didn't have to play him. This UC team doesn't have that luxury....

2.) Development takes time and is not linear. It isn't hard to see most of the problems with this team, but it is hard (and takes time) to fix those problems, especially in a conference as tough as the Big East.

3.) We lost every key player from last year's team with the exception of Vaughn. None of those players were particularly good (although Williamson was pretty solid given the circumstances), but they most certainly developed into a decent Big East team. And anyone that wants to question Micks ability to develop players needs to look no further than that group of players in their 2 Big East seasons.

[psax889906]

Another completely valid and legit point by a (usually) respected local sports authority. I've stated multiple times I think somebody in that '07 class is going to break out in a big way next year. With Vaughn and Gates that will be one of the nastiest duo's in the Big East. Larry Davis or Alvin Mitchell (maybe even Darnell Wilks?) will be able to take an increased role with less pressure.

[BearcatAlum1]

It takes some rational sports fans to put together a valid and logical argument of what to expect from this UC team.

Think of it this way...

If you played a competitive high school sport (i.e. basketball) and your school was in the toughest conference in the state of Ohio, would you have been a giant contributor as a Frosh or Soph? Well, believe it or not, a similar comparison can be made at the collegiate level. Yes, many of the players have matured physically, but it is the mental aspect and skill that needs to develop. Where I come from, you saw a Soph get some minutes on Varsity every 3 years or so... How about we give these kids a full four years to develop before we dismiss them as "busts" and think about pulling their scholarship...


Alum1

[oldcat48]

Here is his entire post:



1.) These players have had no one to learn the Bearcat way from. I'm not sure that can be overstated. Where would a guy like Hicks have been if he didn't have Maxiell? Even with Maxiell, Hicks wasn't ready to play when he first arrived. That Bearcat team just didn't have to play him. This UC team doesn't have that luxury....



This is something I never thought of. The "chain" was completely broken. I never realized what an impact that might have on rebuilding. Hmmm... that's something that might be major in this process.

[GoCats1994]

Do players become better scorers as they get older? Maybe. Or perhaps it could be that they move from being role players to key contributors. It's part of the nature of the college game. Seniors move on, and the next class moves "up" to fill the key roles. In other words - often times players do not have high scoring averages when they are underclassmen because they are not asked to score. (Not arguing that development isn't part of the equation...I simply don't think it is the only variable).

Not sure anyone would disagree with the lack of upperclassmen on the roster...this is more-or-less a fact. The problem is...this doesn't (necessarily) explain why people aren't filling the role of being key contributors. The minutes are there for the taking...

So - the question, I suppose, is whether the current crop of players will continue to develop and improve - as you suggest. I hope so. Especially on the defensive side of the ball. But this does not automatically happen as people age.

Side note:

The current (12-2) Arkansas Razorbacks roster :
Freshmen - 7
Sophomores - 2
Juniors - 4
Seniors - 1

Their top 6 scorers look like this:

Junior* 17.8
Freshman* 14.4
Junior* 13.6
Freshman* 12.3
Freshman* 6.6
Freshman* 6.4

Their lone senior avg's 0.0 points. One of the juniors avg's 0.1.

[ucherm]

Do players become better scorers as they get older? Maybe. Or perhaps it could be that they move from being role players to key contributors. It's part of the nature of the college game. Seniors move on, and the next class moves "up" to fill the key roles. In other words - often times players do not have high scoring averages when they are underclassmen because they are not asked to score. (Not arguing that development isn't part of the equation...I simply don't think it is the only variable).

Not sure anyone would disagree with the lack of upperclassmen on the roster...this is more-or-less a fact. The problem is...this doesn't (necessarily) explain why people aren't filling the role of being key contributors. The minutes are there for the taking...

So - the question, I suppose, is whether the current crop of players will continue to develop and improve - as you suggest. I hope so. Especially on the defensive side of the ball. But this does not automatically happen as people age.

Side note:

The current (12-2) Arkansas Razorbacks roster :
Freshmen - 7
Sophomores - 2
Juniors - 4
Seniors - 1

Their top 6 scorers look like this:

Junior* 17.8
Freshman* 14.4
Junior* 13.6
Freshman* 12.3
Freshman* 6.6
Freshman* 6.4

Their lone senior avg's 0.0 points. One of the juniors avg's 0.1.
And one of those Arkansas freshman is Jason Henry a former UC recruit.

I am tired of hearing about lack of experience. Bulter is a very young team with a good record and they are Bulter for heavens sake.

Lets just face it, Mick's 2007 recruiting class isn't as good as we thought.

[Forsure21]

And one of those Arkansas freshman is Jason Henry a former UC recruit.

I am tired of hearing about lack of experience. Bulter is a very young team with a good record and they are Bulter for heavens sake.

Lets just face it Mick's 2007 recruiting class isn't as good as we thought.

Butler would absolutely struggle to win 4 games in the BE.

[Scheids21]

Butler would absolutely struggle to win 4 games in the BE.

Yeah not sure you can compare our situation to Butlers.

[ucherm]

Oh yeah, just like UC will struggle to win a couple games in the BE.

They beat Xavier. They are ranked #17. With a sophomore leading scorer. Bottom line they will be in the tournament. Just saying, if Butler can get quality minutes from young players, UC should.....

[ralph1950]

Consider the following scoring averages for each season of these former Bearcat players.

From Lance's blog this morning....

Steve Logan: 8.9, 9.8, 17.6, 22.0
Bobby Brannen: 1.8, 5.0, 14.3
Jason Maxiell: 8.1, 11.9, 13.6, 15.3
Eric Hicks: 2.5, 7.0, 13.7, 15.0
Kenyon Martin: 2.8, 9.9, 10.1, 18.9

I have been harsh at times (mainly with Alvin Mitchell), but the development time that Bishop, Davis, Wilks, Gates, and Dixon have is significant.

Look at the horizon, not the front of the ship! We have 9 Freshmen and Sophomores on this team and only one senior that plays. UC will be both a basketball and football school in the very near future!

Yep, Mick and Brian are the men!

[BtotheU]

Butler would absolutely struggle to win 4 games in the BE.

Typical comment by someone that only gets his information from SportsCenter, but never actually watches a game.

[Scheids21]

Typical comment by someone that only gets his information from SportsCenter, but never actually watches a game.

How do you know what TV he watches? :rolleyes:

[Aerosmith]

Consider the following scoring averages for each season of these former Bearcat players.

From Lance's blog this morning....

Steve Logan: 8.9, 9.8, 17.6, 22.0
Bobby Brannen: 1.8, 5.0, 14.3
Jason Maxiell: 8.1, 11.9, 13.6, 15.3
Eric Hicks: 2.5, 7.0, 13.7, 15.0
Kenyon Martin: 2.8, 9.9, 10.1, 18.9

I have been harsh at times (mainly with Alvin Mitchell), but the development time that Bishop, Davis, Wilks, Gates, and Dixon have is significant.

Look at the horizon, not the front of the ship! We have 9 Freshmen and Sophomores on this team and only one senior that plays. UC will be both a basketball and football school in the very near future!

Lance and everyone who thinks this way is finally coming to their senses based on all my informative posts for weeks now explaining how crucial it is to have players in a system for 3 to 4 years, and how the best teams in the Big East have those type of players. :D ;) :p

Dominic James, Jerel McNeal and Wesley Matthews have gotten better each year, and each either started or saw significant playing time since they were freshmen.

Scoring averages may not be the best barometer of a player's improvement. Things like cutting down on turnovers, rebounding better, higher shooting percentage because they take better shots/don't force shots, and the team's defensive numbers are probably better indicators of team and player development, and those numbers usually suffer the most with "inexperience". Right now, these players are learning what a good shot is........so many of them were "the man" in high school and shot it whenever they wanted. Most of them didn't play defense in high school. The big men typically were taller than most of their opponents in high school and are learning to have to work harder rebounding down low. Taking care of the ball and making good passes is another indicator. All these things seem like b-ball 101, but college is a whole 'nother ballgame than high school. Same with the NBA. Otherwise, every kid would play in the NBA and every high school b-ball player would play college ball.

[ralph1950]

Lance and everyone who thinks this way is finally coming to their senses based on all my informative posts for weeks now explaining how crucial it is to have players in a system for 3 to 4 years, and how the best teams in the Big East have those type of players. :D ;) :p

Dominic James, Jerel McNeal and Wesley Matthews have gotten better each year, and each either started or saw significant playing time since they were freshmen.

Scoring averages may not be the best barometer of a player's improvement. Things like cutting down on turnovers, rebounding better, higher shooting percentage because they take better shots/don't force shots, and the team's defensive numbers are probably better indicators of team and player development, and those numbers usually suffer the most with "inexperience". Right now, these players are learning what a good shot is........so many of them were "the man" in high school and shot it whenever they wanted. Most of them didn't play defense in high school. The big men typically were taller than most of their opponents in high school and are learning to have to work harder rebounding down low. Taking care of the ball and making good passes is another indicator. All these things seem like b-ball 101, but college is a whole 'nother ballgame than high school. Same with the NBA. Otherwise, every kid would play in the NBA and every high school b-ball player would play college ball.


I think Mick has made all of the right moves for long term success.

It is good that UC will no longer be known as JUCO U.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Consider the following scoring averages for each season of these former Bearcat players.

From Lance's blog this morning....

Steve Logan: 8.9, 9.8, 17.6, 22.0
Bobby Brannen: 1.8, 5.0, 14.3
Jason Maxiell: 8.1, 11.9, 13.6, 15.3
Eric Hicks: 2.5, 7.0, 13.7, 15.0
Kenyon Martin: 2.8, 9.9, 10.1, 18.9

I have been harsh at times (mainly with Alvin Mitchell), but the development time that Bishop, Davis, Wilks, Gates, and Dixon have is significant.

Look at the horizon, not the front of the ship! We have 9 Freshmen and Sophomores on this team and only one senior that plays. UC will be both a basketball and football school in the very near future!

You must also remember that each of those guys played on UC teams with strong Jr/Sr players in the lineup. Each might have been more dominant as Fr/Soph except for that.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I think Mick has made all of the right moves for long term success.

It is good that UC will no longer be known as JUCO U.

Jason Maxiell. Eric Hicks. Steve Logan. Kenyon Martin. (To name a few)

None attended a JuCo before (or after) UC.

John Wooden coached at UCLA from 1949 thru 1975. His teams enjoyed unparalleled success. And over 60% of his players came to UCLA from JuCo. Examples include Sidney Wicks and Walt Hazzard.

Source of that stat (%) is Wooden's book They Call Me Coach.

[Aerosmith]

Jason Maxiell. Eric Hicks. Steve Logan. Kenyon Martin. (To name a few)

None attended a JuCo before (or after) UC.

John Wooden coached at UCLA from 1949 thru 1975. His teams enjoyed unparalleled success. And over 60% of his players came to UCLA from JuCo. Examples include Sidney Wicks and Walt Hazzard.

Source of that stat (%) is Wooden's book They Call Me Coach.


Irrelevant to today.

Most high schoolers with grade problems go the prep school route nowadays. Wasn't that way until about 8 to 10 years ago.

Only a few JUCO's are typically worth it today as opposed to finding a bunch of them years ago.

[jeffto]

I think Mick has made all of the right moves for long term success.

It is good that UC will no longer be known as JUCO U.Juco U is a much more acceptable term than Thug U.

And as '58 points out, there's nothing wrong with Juco's, except that now there's not nearly as much talent coming from Juco's as there used to be.

[Not Guilty]

You must also remember that each of those guys played on UC teams with strong Jr/Sr players in the lineup. Each might have been more dominant as Fr/Soph except for that.

Or they may have been significantly worse because they didn't someone to push them everyday in practice.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Irrelevant to today.

Most high schoolers with grade problems go the prep school route nowadays. Wasn't that way until about 8 to 10 years ago.

Only a few JUCO's are typically worth it today as opposed to finding a bunch of them years ago.

Bill Self led Kansas to NCAA title in 2008 but 2 of his key 2008 recruits are from JuCo.

JC players are good if you scout them correctly and have good contacts.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Juco U is a much more acceptable term than Thug U.

And as '58 points out, there's nothing wrong with Juco's, except that now there's not nearly as much talent coming from Juco's as there used to be.

Gillispie at UK signed 2 JuCo recruits among his 4 recruits in 2008 class.