Smart Article/Great Read

[Bearcat Jeff]

Enjoy and gain some insight.

http://www.newsrecord.org/sections/sports/bad_losses_overshadow_progress-1.1604822

[Mick's Da Man]

How dare you bring sanity, reason, and facts to this message board!!!!!

[jkwuc89]

How dare you bring sanity, reason, and facts to this message board!!!!!

Take it easy please. Remember, expressing sarcasm on a message board is difficult.

[Cats4Ever]

the comments are better than the amateurish article.

[Mick's Da Man]

But it was sarcasm. My response basically says I agree with the thread originator........great read.

[slimm]

Enjoy and gain some insight.

http://www.newsrecord.org/sections/sports/bad_losses_overshadow_progress-1.1604822

nice article. I do think that it reflects the feelings of the silent majority. and yes, the silent majority are not showing up at games.
________
The Legend Condo (http://pattayaluxurycondos.com)

[Globe Trotting Cat Fan]

Patience is, as many can relate I believe, something that most sports fans have little of.

Particularly when we all got use to a decade and a half of nothing but success and tournament bids.

However, in three short years, Mick has taken a team that had one player on scholarship when he arrived, to an 18 win team in a very difficult environment to coach in.

I believe whole heartedly that with a point guard next year, and with the addition&subtraction of a few players, we will see a team that is going to press more, run more, and be more in line with what Mick's philosophy truly is. And with those changes, I believe more wins will come.

Go Cats!

[Bearcat Jeff]

Well, I'm not aware of the writers professional level, but he puts the U.C. situation in great perspective. He also has some nice comparisons so people can compare apples to apples.

Someone said that Mick Cronin only gets paid to win. My guess is that the admin understood that he was being hired to do so much more than that. He was being hired to win yes. But he was also being hired to:

Restore the schools national reputation
Improve student athlete academic performance
Recruit kids that would reflect the university in a positive way
Rebuild the foundation of U.C. Basketball
Improve the talent level
Become a consistent winner

Mick Cronin is not being judge by this administration for wins and losses only. They are intelligent people (regardless of opinions to the contrary on here) and they knew what the firing and it's timing would do to the basketball program. They understood that recruiting would be damaged. They understood it would be tough to recruit to this situation. They understood that if a coach did it the right way it would take time and that it would be a process.

You may hate the admin and be bitter. But you can't be foolish enough to believe that this admin wasn't totally aware of the consequences of it's actions and what it would take to fix them. Alot of very accomplished people were involved in this and I promise you it had been discussed and torn apart before it happened.

[RobPoppeil]

Restore the schools national reputation
Improve student athlete academic performance
Recruit kids that would reflect the university in a positive way
Rebuild the foundation of U.C. Basketball
Improve the talent level
Become a consistent winner


How does quitting at the end of the year restore the school's national reputation or reflect positively on the university? Does the CBIT and then no post season restore the school's reputation? Does having a coach throw his players under the bus repeatedly in the media raise our reputation?

[slimm]

How does quitting at the end of the year restore the school's national reputation or reflect positively on the university? Does the CBIT and then no post season restore the school's reputation? Does having a coach throw his players under the bus repeatedly in the media raise our reputation?

The article did say " the big picture". so,everything you mentioned is true, however 5 years from now,regardless of who is coach, this time period will simply be looked upon as a necessary part of the rebuilding process. If mick is still here , he would have obviously succeeded enough (relatively speaking) to be here, if he is let go, the new coach will either blame mick for a program left in ruins, or praise him for establishing the foundation on which he will continue to build.
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

[hammerbearcat1]

I still believe in Mick. I just think that everyone, including myself, remember the 14 straight NCAA apperances in a row and get frustrated.

But to have only 8% of the people saying they think we're going in the right direction is unfair to Mick. What kind of bandwagon is this anyways? Hope is on the way for next year.

[LongTimer]

Patience is, as many can relate I believe, something that most sports fans have little of.

Particularly when we all got use to a decade and a half of nothing but success and tournament bids.

However, in three short years, Mick has taken a team that had one player on scholarship when he arrived, to an 18 win team in a very difficult environment to coach in.

I believe whole heartedly that with a point guard next year, and with the addition&subtraction of a few players, we will see a team that is going to press more, run more, and be more in line with what Mick's philosophy truly is. And with those changes, I believe more wins will come.

Go Cats!

Once again, I hate to keep repeating this, but everyone keeps posting incorrect facts. When Cronin arrived, he had two scholarship players. One was one of the best point guards in the nation. He talked to Cronin and decided that he wanted to transfer. A few weeks later, he changed his mind and went back to Cronin to say he wanted to stay. Cronin told him that he would not accept him back. I remember Cronin saying in the paper..."sometimes, you just have to live with the decisions you make". Cronin was being a hard-***, trying to show who's boss, whatever. Bottom line, he ran Devan Downey off. Put Devan Downey as a sophomore on Mick's 1st team and what do you have? Put Devan Downey as a junior onto last year's team and how do you think we would have done down the stretch? Do you think his presence would have allowed us to defeat Belmont and Illinois St? Add Devan downey as a senior to this year's team. How would we have done with possibly the best point guard in the nation this year...a point guard that can also score 20 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to give Cronin the credit for starting with nothing. That one decision, which is 100% on him, has single-handedly impacted our recovery in a huge way. With Downey, we probably make the dance last year and this year, we would have been a player in the Big east standings.

[PK2]

I think it is a healthy discussion to question how much longer we are giving Mick. The second you stop questioning our lack of progress is when you start being satisfied with a mediocre program. There are so many schools out there that once had great programs and have just fallen and probably won't recover. I don't want to be one of those schools that people look at like oooh yeah you guys used to have a great program back in the 90s. I know nothing will change this offseason but if we don't make the NCAAs next year or if our team plays with the same lack of heart, motivation and intensity Mick should be gone...I don't care the excuses (injuries etc...)

[LongTimer]

I still believe in Mick. I just think that everyone, including myself, remember the 14 straight NCAA apperances in a row and get frustrated.

But to have only 8% of the people saying they think we're going in the right direction is unfair to Mick. What kind of bandwagon is this anyways? Hope is on the way for next year.

There is no bandwagon. 8% is reflective of a minority opinion. The majority of UC fans voted just like I thought they would. The people who question Mick as coach are only the minority on this forum....(well, we were the minority....the last few days we suddenly became the majority). Outside of this forum, the average UC fan on the street feels just like the people who are labeled as "Mick-Bashers" in here and that poll has just proved that point emphatically!!! And that poll also accurately reflects just why the arena is only half-full for games!!

[STKohls]

Once again, I hate to keep repeating this, but everyone keeps posting incorrect facts. When Cronin arrived, he had two scholarship players. One was one of the best point guards in the nation. He talked to Cronin and decided that he wanted to transfer. A few weeks later, he changed his mind and went back to Cronin to say he wanted to stay. Cronin told him that he would not accept him back. I remember Cronin saying in the paper..."sometimes, you just have to live with the decisions you make". Cronin was being a hard-***, trying to show who's boss, whatever. Bottom line, he ran Devan Downey off. Put Devan Downey as a sophomore on Mick's 1st team and what do you have? Put Devan Downey as a junior onto last year's team and how do you think we would have done down the stretch? Do you think his presence would have allowed us to defeat Belmont and Illinois St? Add Devan downey as a senior to this year's team. How would we have done with possibly the best point guard in the nation this year...a point guard that can also score 20 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to give Cronin the credit for starting with nothing. That one decision, which is 100% on him, has single-handedly impacted our recovery in a huge way. With Downey, we probably make the dance last year and this year, we would have been a player in the Big east standings.

Those are all valid points, but they lead to another point: By your own admission, UC is one player away from making the NCAA's the last 2 years and being a player in the Big East standings. Would Cashmere as a Freshman done what Downey as a Senior could do? No. Would he have made a tremendous difference? Yes.

Even though I disagree, I think it's fair to blame Cronin for the decision to refuse Downey's offer, but you should credit Cronin for bringing in players that have restored UC to a winning record and can help get UC back to the NCAA Tourney. Excluding the last 3 (maybe 4) horrific games, the players were showing real improvement during the season, and I think there's good reason to be excited about next year.

[cincycpaw]

Once again, I hate to keep repeating this, but everyone keeps posting incorrect facts. When Cronin arrived, he had two scholarship players. One was one of the best point guards in the nation. He talked to Cronin and decided that he wanted to transfer. A few weeks later, he changed his mind and went back to Cronin to say he wanted to stay. Cronin told him that he would not accept him back. I remember Cronin saying in the paper..."sometimes, you just have to live with the decisions you make". Cronin was being a hard-***, trying to show who's boss, whatever. Bottom line, he ran Devan Downey off. Put Devan Downey as a sophomore on Mick's 1st team and what do you have? Put Devan Downey as a junior onto last year's team and how do you think we would have done down the stretch? Do you think his presence would have allowed us to defeat Belmont and Illinois St? Add Devan downey as a senior to this year's team. How would we have done with possibly the best point guard in the nation this year...a point guard that can also score 20 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to give Cronin the credit for starting with nothing. That one decision, which is 100% on him, has single-handedly impacted our recovery in a huge way. With Downey, we probably make the dance last year and this year, we would have been a player in the Big east standings.


Not to mention how much easier recruiting would have been on Mick if he could have recruited players to play with a PG of Downey's caliber.

But, based upon the collapses, I'm not sure Downey would have kept them from happening. If Mick has lost his team each year at the end, he very well mmight have lost Downey as well. We will never know though.

[Lobot]

Is it just me or did that writer pretty much siphon all of that article off our forum posts?

[cincycpaw]

Is it just me or did that writer pretty much siphon all of that article off our forum posts?

Yep...unfortunately he ignored th emajority of the posts here. ;)

Actually, I thought it was not a very good article. Just another excuse article. Nothing to show we are on the right path...just saying we had an injured PG is not enough.

If you are writing an article about UC being on the right path, you MUST address the development of the players on the roster as well as the incoming recruits...not just say "They'll be better next year" but WHY you believe that.

Anyhow, I'm tired of reading articles that only give excuses.

[Bearcat Otto]

Once again, I hate to keep repeating this, but everyone keeps posting incorrect facts. When Cronin arrived, he had two scholarship players. One was one of the best point guards in the nation. He talked to Cronin and decided that he wanted to transfer. A few weeks later, he changed his mind and went back to Cronin to say he wanted to stay. Cronin told him that he would not accept him back. I remember Cronin saying in the paper..."sometimes, you just have to live with the decisions you make". Cronin was being a hard-***, trying to show who's boss, whatever. Bottom line, he ran Devan Downey off. Put Devan Downey as a sophomore on Mick's 1st team and what do you have? Put Devan Downey as a junior onto last year's team and how do you think we would have done down the stretch? Do you think his presence would have allowed us to defeat Belmont and Illinois St? Add Devan downey as a senior to this year's team. How would we have done with possibly the best point guard in the nation this year...a point guard that can also score 20 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to give Cronin the credit for starting with nothing. That one decision, which is 100% on him, has single-handedly impacted our recovery in a huge way. With Downey, we probably make the dance last year and this year, we would have been a player in the Big east standings.

Downey might have scored a few points but he would have given up far more with his "Ole" defense.

[jkwuc89]

We've beaten the "what if Downey stayed" horse to death. He's gone and he's been gone for 3 seasons. Move on!

[bearcatbret]

I wonder what this board would have been like during the Yates years? I am glad that there was no internet back then.

I also remember someone else promising us hope and change. All it got us was trillions of dollars of debt.

[LongTimer]

Those are all valid points, but they lead to another point: By your own admission, UC is one player away from making the NCAA's the last 2 years and being a player in the Big East standings. Would Cashmere as a Freshman done what Downey as a Senior could do? No. Would he have made a tremendous difference? Yes.

Even though I disagree, I think it's fair to blame Cronin for the decision to refuse Downey's offer, but you should credit Cronin for bringing in players that have restored UC to a winning record and can help get UC back to the NCAA Tourney. Excluding the last 3 (maybe 4) horrific games, the players were showing real improvement during the season, and I think there's good reason to be excited about next year.

Well, he significantly downgraded the OOC schedule to pick up extra wins. His Big East record did not improve at all. Do you honestly think these players showed great improvement over last year? Vaughn was worse. Bishop was worse. Davis was about the same. Wilkes maybe slightly better. Mitchell...still suspended at the end of this season...no great improvement. Biggie worse. I don't feel any better about this group of players at the end of this season than I did at the end of last year. I think the primary reason that the team was showing improvement mid-season was that Gates had started to look like the real deal and Dixon was improving and playing great. Both players unfortunately fell way off down the stretch and at the end, the only player playing good was Branden Miller!

[PK2]

We've beaten the "what if Downey stayed" horse to death. He's gone and he's been gone for 3 seasons. Move on!

I agree that there's no point in going back and forth talking about what-ifs about Downey. However, I think it is reasonable to bring up the Downey issue if we are talking about Cronin's decision making and the running of the program.

[LongTimer]

We've beaten the "what if Downey stayed" horse to death. He's gone and he's been gone for 3 seasons. Move on!

If the Downey talk needs to stop, then you should also stop the Mick started with nothing talk. That also happened 3 years ago and it isn't factually true either!

[catsfan32]

I think it is unfair to say the article didnt mention anything about progress or show our improvement, he stated we went from 11 to 13 and now to 18 wins. That is what people call a trend. Yeah we have flaked out the last 5/6 games of the last two seasons, but the overall trend shows improvements and progress and next year following that trend we will be well over 20 wins and hopefully an NCAA birth, i still think the program is headed in the right direction. On a side note, G-town finished 16-14 and JT3 is one of the best young coach's in the nation. Shows you how hard the BE is year in and year out, not to mention their top 15 recruiting classes every year.

[Cats4Ever]

Downey might have scored a few points but he would have given up far more with his "Ole" defense.

The Downey Ole' defense has been replaced by the Mitchell "Maybe" D. :D

[LongTimer]

I think it is unfair to say the article didnt mention anything about progress or show our improvement, he stated we went from 11 to 13 and now to 18 wins. That is what people call a trend. Yeah we have flaked out the last 5/6 games of the last two seasons, but the overall trend shows improvements and progress and next year following that trend we will be well over 20 wins and hopefully an NCAA birth, i still think the program is headed in the right direction. On a side note, G-town finished 16-14 and JT3 is one of the best young coach's in the nation. Shows you how hard the BE is year in and year out, not to mention their top 15 recruiting classes every year.

A better coach or better coaching by Mick and those wins should have been maybe 14, 18. 22. His record shows progress, but not impressive progress!

[Mick's Da Man]

Well, I'm not aware of the writers professional level, but he puts the U.C. situation in great perspective. He also has some nice comparisons so people can compare apples to apples.

Someone said that Mick Cronin only gets paid to win. My guess is that the admin understood that he was being hired to do so much more than that. He was being hired to win yes. But he was also being hired to:

Restore the schools national reputation
Improve student athlete academic performance
Recruit kids that would reflect the university in a positive way
Rebuild the foundation of U.C. Basketball
Improve the talent level
Become a consistent winner

Mick Cronin is not being judge by this administration for wins and losses only. They are intelligent people (regardless of opinions to the contrary on here) and they knew what the firing and it's timing would do to the basketball program. They understood that recruiting would be damaged. They understood it would be tough to recruit to this situation. They understood that if a coach did it the right way it would take time and that it would be a process.

You may hate the admin and be bitter. But you can't be foolish enough to believe that this admin wasn't totally aware of the consequences of it's actions and what it would take to fix them. Alot of very accomplished people were involved in this and I promise you it had been discussed and torn apart before it happened.

Great post. You brought up things that haven't been pointed out in awhile.

This about more than winning. It's about doing things right.

Again. Great post.

[Mick's Da Man]

We've beaten the "what if Downey stayed" horse to death. He's gone and he's been gone for 3 seasons. Move on!

Great post. Maybe those who beat the "downey" stuff to death need a break from the board to ponder their actions. :D

[PK2]

I think it is unfair to say the article didnt mention anything about progress or show our improvement, he stated we went from 11 to 13 and now to 18 wins. That is what people call a trend. Yeah we have flaked out the last 5/6 games of the last two seasons, but the overall trend shows improvements and progress and next year following that trend we will be well over 20 wins and hopefully an NCAA birth, i still think the program is headed in the right direction. On a side note, G-town finished 16-14 and JT3 is one of the best young coach's in the nation. Shows you how hard the BE is year in and year out, not to mention their top 15 recruiting classes every year.

I think my problem with this is that if next year we have 20-21 wins and half of them are against Arkansas Pine Nuts and East Nasal Drip Virginia State and people keep talking about what kind of progress we've made. That's the feeling I've had about this year...You can't only look at number of wins-losses you have to have quality wins and you have to start seeing that Mick is in charge of this team and has his player's respect. I didn't see that this year.

[catsfan32]

A better coach or better coaching by Mick and those wins should have been maybe 14, 18. 22. His record shows progress, but not impressive progress!

Maybe maybe not, a better coach may have struggled just as much or may have exceeded MC so far, no one knows. But the trend is still there, we are winning more games year after year, and an 8-10 this year in the BE is about right, last year we surpassed all expectations to finish 8-10.

[Mick's Da Man]

I think my problem with this is that if next year we have 20-21 wins and half of them are against Arkansas Pine Nuts and East Nasal Drip Virginia State and people keep talking about what kind of progress we've made. That's the feeling I've had about this year...You can't only look at number of wins-losses you have to have quality wins and you have to start seeing that Mick is in charge of this team and has his player's respect. I didn't see that this year.

The people still defending Mick right now will not be defending him at the end of next season if the results are the same. I don't mean to speak for those people, but I think they would agree with me.

I think the Mick supporters just understand what's involved in rebuilding and the timeframe of it, better than those who lack patience and live in the past.

It's comical how we get accused of accepting mediocrity, losing, and a whole host of other negatives we're accused of, when in reality, we're just living in the reality of the circumstances.

I suppose you expect Obama to have already created an economic boom and pulled America out of it's recession/depression in 3 months? Obama says it will probably take into his second term in office to right this bad economic ship.

So when Mick takes over and has a 5 year rebuilding plan, people expect it to go from 5 to 3 years???? Doesn't work that way.

[RobPoppeil]

The people still defending Mick right now will not be defending him at the end of next season if the results are the same. I don't mean to speak for those people, but I think they would agree with me.

I think the Mick supporters just understand what's involved in rebuilding and the timeframe of it, better than those who lack patience and live in the past.

It's comical how we get accused of accepting mediocrity, losing, and a whole host of other negatives we're accused of, when in reality, we're just living in the reality of the circumstances.

I suppose you expect Obama to have already created an economic boom and pulled America out of it's recession/depression in 3 months? Obama says it will probably take into his second term in office to right this bad economic ship.

So when Mick takes over and has a 5 year rebuilding plan, people expect it to go from 5 to 3 years???? Doesn't work that way.

A world wide economic meltdown and getting 12 men to play basketball are not even close to being the same thing. If Obama plans to fix the world economy in 5 or 6 years, it should take a lot less time for Mick the same to win basketball.

[PK2]

The people still defending Mick right now will not be defending him at the end of next season if the results are the same. I don't mean to speak for those people, but I think they would agree with me.

I think the Mick supporters just understand what's involved in rebuilding and the timeframe of it, better than those who lack patience and live in the past.

It's comical how we get accused of accepting mediocrity, losing, and a whole host of other negatives we're accused of, when in reality, we're just living in the reality of the circumstances.

I suppose you expect Obama to have already created an economic boom and pulled America out of it's recession/depression in 3 months? Obama says it will probably take into his second term in office to right this bad economic ship.

So when Mick takes over and has a 5 year rebuilding plan, people expect it to go from 5 to 3 years???? Doesn't work that way.

I'm not accusing anyone of anything, just giving my personal opninon on the matter (not on the people who disagree with me). And I know I've said this before and I'm sorry for repeating it again but the whole not getting his players motivated is really what scares me more than anything. If I see that we play and give 100% for a full season next year I'm way more willing to give him a chance. That is what concerns me more than the losses

[Lobot]

Can some of you agree to disagree and let the arguments directed at each other go please? This is the kind of stuff that gets threads locked. I'm not saying I'm going to do that but the admins are working with a short leash towards members rules violations and the like right now. Just FYI.

After yesterday I'm gun shy so you don't have to worry about me.

[Cats4Ever]

Josh K's article says that there will be a minimum of 4 juniors on next year's team. Is he saying Belton and Mitchell are gone? Who are the 2 he is speculating may not return?

Why would he publish info this way? I bet a player or two is reading that thinking "dang, I'm gone?"

Shouldn't scholarships be honored both ways?

[Mick's Da Man]

A world wide economic meltdown and getting 12 men to play basketball are not even close to being the same thing. If Obama plans to fix the world economy in 5 or 6 years, it should take a lot less time for Mick the same to win basketball.

Hmmm. Mick said he had a 5 year plan. Mike Thomas hired him based on that 5 year rebuilding plan. Dan Hoard, Machock, Jamie Dixon, and multiple sports analysts, Mike Decourcy, multiple head coaches who know Mick and the situation...............all of these people, with tons more experience, b-ball knowledge, and insider information THAN YOU..........understand the rebuilding plan.

From the beginning, it was 5 years. Not 3 years. Not 2 years. Not 4 years.

5 years. :rolleyes:

[slimm]

A world wide economic meltdown and getting 12 men to play basketball are not even close to being the same thing. If Obama plans to fix the world economy in 5 or 6 years, it should take a lot less time for Mick the same to win basketball.

This is absolutely correct... if Obama DOES fix the worlds economy in 5/6 years, then micks outta here. plus, if Obamas plans work, we would be a socialist country and every other team would have to share their wins with us so every year would be successful!
________
Zoloft Withdraw (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/zoloft/)

[Billy Don]

I've never read an article from the News Record guy that wasn't a word for word repeat of what has been on this or other message board a hundred times. He has never had a thought of his own. Of course he has to be a homer also. You won't see anything bad said against Barney Fife from him. Of course I get a laugh out of Barney Fife and thats about all I get out of Mick Cronin when he acts up on the sideline. When he loses control and is the real Cronin he is funny. When hes under control he is a copycat of Rick Pitino and he has some of those hand moves Rick does down pat. Lets see the News Record write UC has Barney Fife for a coach and he only has one bullet. At least we could get a laugh while watching everybody else play basketball while we are sitting home.

[PK2]

This is absolutely correct... if Obama DOES fix the worlds economy in 5/6 years, then micks outta here. plus, if Obamas plans work, we would be a socialist country and every other team would have to share their wins with us so every year would be successful!

Maybe we should stop the political references in the forum before it starts getting ugly.

[Mick's Da Man]

Josh K's article says that there will be a minimum of 4 juniors on next year's team. Is he saying Belton and Mitchell are gone? Who are the 2 he is speculating may not return?

Why would he publish info this way? I bet a player or two is reading that thinking "dang, I'm gone?"

Shouldn't scholarships be honored both ways?

Why would Belton think he would still be on the team? I understand there are scholarship situations for career ending injuries. If Belton never plays b-ball again due to his spinal problems, UC will honor his scholarship, yet it won't count against the NCAA 13 scholarships. It is a special case.

As for Mitchell, it doesn't sound good.........his second suspension or problem due to attitude or breaking team rules???? Not trying to can the guy, but if this is a serious matter, his second serious matter, then I suspect he will be gone.

Other juniors? Ibrahima Thomas, Davis, Bishop, Wilks, McClain? Will Biggie be here next year?

[PK2]

Personally I hope Biggie comes back. I know a lot of people on here have been hard on him but I really think he can help this team.

[Mick's Da Man]

Maybe we should stop the political references in the forum before it starts getting ugly.

Well as usual, the point of the comment about Obama's timeframe and Mick's timeframe completely gets twisted around and misconstrued.

The point was Obama (I'm a Republican, but I'm using a non-biased example.....this has nothing to do with my political views) SAID x number of years to fix the economy. The point was Mick SAID x number of years to rebuild. The point was why do people expect the rebuilding project to be 2 or 3 years when it was clearly stated by Mick and agreed upon by the AD, that it was 5 years?

That was the point, clearly stated, and as usual, misconstrued and twisted around.

[PK2]

Actually I'm sorry but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm new to this forum and am just trying to talk about basketball. Not sure wy Mick's Da Man is after me for everything I'm saying, I'm not criticizing or attacking anyone. I was talking about the "socialist" comments and the "last time we heard about hope and change we ended up trillion dollars in debt".

[Bearcat Jeff]

How does quitting at the end of the year restore the school's national reputation or reflect positively on the university? Does the CBIT and then no post season restore the school's reputation? Does having a coach throw his players under the bus repeatedly in the media raise our reputation? I don't believe the kids quit. They played piss poor but I don't think they quit. Losing reflects on the basketball program, not the university. I'm telling you, rather you believe it or not, that Mick is being judged on much more than wins/losses right now. He is being judged by the progress he is making and how he is doing it because they knew it would take several seasons to be back on track.

[Mick's Da Man]

Actually I'm sorry but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm new to this forum and am just trying to talk about basketball. Not sure wy Mick's Da Man is after me for everything I'm saying, I'm not criticizing or attacking anyone. I was talking about the "socialist" comments and the "last time we heard about hope and change we ended up trillion dollars in debt".

Dude.....where did I attack you?

I agree with you. No political references. I guess I didn't view my use of Obama as me stating any opinions about politics or the current mess. I was just using it as an example of people of importance taking on rebuilding situations and their stated timelines. I was not trying to stir up political conversation. This isn't the place for that.

[Mick's Da Man]

Personally I hope Biggie comes back. I know a lot of people on here have been hard on him but I really think he can help this team.

I hope he comes back too.

But I still think unless he improves drastically, he will be used sparingly his next 2 seasons. The only way I see him seeing the court is if he gets hurt and sits out a year, soon. By then Toyloy, Thomas, Williams, and possibly Gates will be gone, and Biggie will have the most experience.

[PK2]

Your analogy was ok because it pertained to the discussion. I just had a problem with the random comments thrown in that had nothing to do with their arguments. Sorry for the misunderstanding

[Bearcat Jeff]

I hope he comes back too.

But I still think unless he improves drastically, he will be used sparingly his next 2 seasons. The only way I see him seeing the court is if he gets hurt and sits out a year, soon. By then Toyloy, Thomas, Williams, and possibly Gates will be gone, and Biggie will have the most experience.
Torn on Biggie. Part of me wants him to redshirt and stay and part wants him to leave.

[LongTimer]

Actually I'm sorry but that's not what I'm referring to. I'm new to this forum and am just trying to talk about basketball. Not sure wy Mick's Da Man is after me for everything I'm saying, I'm not criticizing or attacking anyone. I was talking about the "socialist" comments and the "last time we heard about hope and change we ended up trillion dollars in debt".

lol...get used to the attacks. By the way (not directed at PK2), there was never a mention of a 5 year plan to recover. No AD in his right mind would state I'll give you 5 years to get us back and publicize it to the fans. There would have been a riot. We only started hearing 5 years after it became apparent that we didn't have a coach to get it done quicker!

[RobPoppeil]

I don't believe the kids quit. They played piss poor but I don't think they quit. Losing reflects on the basketball program, not the university. I'm telling you, rather you believe it or not, that Mick is being judged on much more than wins/losses right now. He is being judged by the progress he is making and how he is doing it because they knew it would take several seasons to be back on track.

So you believe those last 4 games were their best effort?

And yes losing reflects on the university. The represent the university so their loses reflect on the university. Again even if Mick is being judged on more than wins and loses, how is having your team quit judging well and how is throwing your players under the bus publicly judging well? Neither reflect well on the university.

[Doss]

I liked this response to Bo(ob)

Bo don't know!

The similarity Mick Cronin and Tony Yates is striking:
1. Tony played at Lockland Wayne. Mick played at LaSalle. Note the "L"
2. Both graduated from UC. Tony played PG on 2 NCAA Championship teams. Mick played videos.
3. Tony was considered to be a great recruiter for a big time school (IL). Mick was considered a great recruiter for big time FHOF coaches (Pitino and HUGGS)
4. Both were hired to return the program to it's top 10 Status.
5. Tony could not bench coach. Mick can't bench coach.
6. Tony was "fired" via opening Yates-Wyler Dodge
7. Mick will be fired and open Cronin-Wyler Hyundai

[cincycpaw]

I think it is unfair to say the article didnt mention anything about progress or show our improvement, he stated we went from 11 to 13 and now to 18 wins. That is what people call a trend. Yeah we have flaked out the last 5/6 games of the last two seasons, but the overall trend shows improvements and progress and next year following that trend we will be well over 20 wins and hopefully an NCAA birth, i still think the program is headed in the right direction. On a side note, G-town finished 16-14 and JT3 is one of the best young coach's in the nation. Shows you how hard the BE is year in and year out, not to mention their top 15 recruiting classes every year.

That's a fair point...though I'm looking for an article, I'm looking for more about WHY we got more wins and what is there to think we will be better the next year. Actual reporting.

[cincycpaw]

Maybe maybe not, a better coach may have struggled just as much or may have exceeded MC so far, no one knows. But the trend is still there, we are winning more games year after year, and an 8-10 this year in the BE is about right, last year we surpassed all expectations to finish 8-10.

oh wait a minute...so, you're saying we were 8-10 2 years in a row? Progress? ;)

[ucfan1980]

Take it easy please. Remember, expressing sarcasm on a message board is difficult.

I would have to give him an A+ on that one. No difficulty at all there.

[Ran513]

How does quitting at the end of the year restore the school's national reputation or reflect positively on the university? Does the CBIT and then no post season restore the school's reputation? Does having a coach throw his players under the bus repeatedly in the media raise our reputation? The only thing i can suggest to you my friend, and all like you, is for you to maybe take a break for a while,take a few months to gather yourself. All the ranting and raving of all the " Im mad, Mick sucks folks", is not going to accomplish any of the goals you all want. We are not going to fire Mick and find the next " Great" coach, and play for the championship next year. All of the fans who have the idea that there are coaches out there that can make this work better need to remember some things. None of these hero coaches lined up to coach our dear bearcats. Not ONE more qualified coach looked twice at the job. The reality is not many had the cahones to even try to put that mess together, let alone do it in the BigEast. Im just as upset about the finnish as the next fan, but if you cannot see the OVERALL improvement of the program, your are an emotional reck right now and need some time away. If you really think about what a firing would do to this program now, and still want it, i have to question 1. are you really a Bearcat 2. Do you really know about college athletics. We fans need to understand this was not the A10( A10 equals A school and 10 losers).WE were the only program in our conference who was basicly a brand new program, **** you could be an Indiana fan.

[Lobot]

PK had an excellent idea. Let's leave the politics out. You're bound to tick off somone on one side of the political fence or the other which in turn probably starts an argument.

[STKohls]

oh wait a minute...so, you're saying we were 8-10 2 years in a row? Progress? ;)

I sure would like to be better than 8-10, but let me rephrase the question:

Is the Big East a tougher conference than last year?

I think you can make a valid case that the team is much improved over last season. Certainly the record would show that, and despite all the comments about a weak OOC schedule, last year we lost to some of those mid-major and directional schools. This year? not so much.

That being said, I agree with lots of you that the execution and effort during the last 3 games left a lot to be desired. We've gone to the cusp of the NCAA's to the cusp of the NIT in a week. I'm just not ready to give up on the team or the coach, and I think they deserve another year, at least.

[bearcatbilly6225]

If the Downey talk needs to stop, then you should also stop the Mick started with nothing talk. That also happened 3 years ago and it isn't factually true either!


oh but thats obvious that the admins here only tell people to quit talking about things that are old news if its not what they want to hear. 10 years from now if MC is still around and not made the tourney they will use the same old lame excuses and the same admin that tell everyone to not talk about things will agree with them. I really am starting to think they are all in denial or just trying to block out the past out of their minds so they do not truly see how far we have fallen.

[RobPoppeil]

The only thing i can suggest to you my friend, and all like you, is for you to maybe take a break for a while,take a few months to gather yourself. All the ranting and raving of all the " Im mad, Mick sucks folks", is not going to accomplish any of the goals you all want. We are not going to fire Mick and find the next " Great" coach, and play for the championship next year. All of the fans who have the idea that there are coaches out there that can make this work better need to remember some things. None of these hero coaches lined up to coach our dear bearcats. Not ONE more qualified coach looked twice at the job. The reality is not many had the cahones to even try to put that mess together, let alone do it in the BigEast. Im just as upset about the finnish as the next fan, but if you cannot see the OVERALL improvement of the program, your are an emotional reck right now and need some time away. If you really think about what a firing would do to this program now, and still want it, i have to question 1. are you really a Bearcat 2. Do you really know about college athletics. We fans need to understand this was not the A10( A10 equals A school and 10 losers).WE were the only program in our conference who was basicly a brand new program, **** you could be an Indiana fan.

Interesting points but not one of them shows Mick is a good coach. You ask if I really am a Bearcat and I would wonder why a real Bearcat would accept a mediocre at best coach. If we really want the Bearcats to be good, why would we settle for Mick's failures?

[catsfan32]

Does anyone have any info on our schedule for next year, maybe what tourney's we will be playing in? I thought someone said the Maui Inv? I think we had a decent OOC schedule this year with some tough opponents, sure we had some cupcakes but it was to bad in my opinion. Any news would be appreciated! P.S. I hope we land Vinson and a PG for 09!

[catsfan32]

I think a question everyone needs to consider is where would this program be if we did fire Mick this year? I dont think there is any way we could pull of something like MU did with Buzz this year. Personally i think we would fall into another 3-5 year rebuilding process. I'll see out Mick next year and go from there.

[LongTimer]

The only thing i can suggest to you my friend, and all like you, is for you to maybe take a break for a while,take a few months to gather yourself. All the ranting and raving of all the " Im mad, Mick sucks folks", is not going to accomplish any of the goals you all want. We are not going to fire Mick and find the next " Great" coach, and play for the championship next year. All of the fans who have the idea that there are coaches out there that can make this work better need to remember some things. None of these hero coaches lined up to coach our dear bearcats. Not ONE more qualified coach looked twice at the job. The reality is not many had the cahones to even try to put that mess together, let alone do it in the BigEast. Im just as upset about the finnish as the next fan, but if you cannot see the OVERALL improvement of the program, your are an emotional reck right now and need some time away. If you really think about what a firing would do to this program now, and still want it, i have to question 1. are you really a Bearcat 2. Do you really know about college athletics. We fans need to understand this was not the A10( A10 equals A school and 10 losers).WE were the only program in our conference who was basicly a brand new program, **** you could be an Indiana fan.

Did nobody line up for the job, or did we target Mick Cronin right from the start thinking that hiring him might soften some of the complaining and bickering and bad blood that was happening back then. Hire the hometown boy and UC graduate and maybe everything will quiet down. It worked for awhile! Not anymore! You brought up a good example, Marquette loses Crean, and actually gets better. Not only better, but a lot better.

In answer to your question #1, I am a Bearcat, graduated there, season ticket holder for 48 years....been to thousands of college games...understand it very well. The only thing about our program that was brand new was most of our roster. Everything else about "the Program" was in place and well established. The foundation was well established. All Mick had to do was recruit. He didn't have to develop the brand, the name recognition, nor anything else related to "the Program". Just recruit, coach, and win. He hasn't done any of those particularly well.

[LongTimer]

I think a question everyone needs to consider is where would this program be if we did fire Mick this year? I dont think there is any way we could pull of something like MU did with Buzz this year. Personally i think we would fall into another 3-5 year rebuilding process. I'll see out Mick next year and go from there.

I finally agree with something you said. I wouldn't want to take this job and play with Mick's recruits...no way in ****. At least Crean left Buzz with something to work with!!

[bearcatbilly6225]

I sure would like to be better than 8-10, but let me rephrase the question:

Is the Big East a tougher conference than last year?

I think you can make a valid case that the team is much improved over last season. Certainly the record would show that, and despite all the comments about a weak OOC schedule, last year we lost to some of those mid-major and directional schools. This year? not so much.

That being said, I agree with lots of you that the execution and effort during the last 3 games left a lot to be desired. We've gone to the cusp of the NCAA's to the cusp of the NIT in a week. I'm just not ready to give up on the team or the coach, and I think they deserve another year, at least.

last year we actually beat some good teams though...this year we beat what one in WVU oh but everyone makes mick the saviour cause he beat huggs...who gives a damn about one game....Ill tell you what Huggins dont he will be dancing once again this year just like clock work, and we will be sitting home just like clock work with MC lame duck.

The OOC weak schedule is also a very valid point we beat a bunch of cupcakes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[slimm]

Well as usual, the point of the comment about Obama's timeframe and Mick's timeframe completely gets twisted around and misconstrued.

The point was Obama (I'm a Republican, but I'm using a non-biased example.....this has nothing to do with my political views) SAID x number of years to fix the economy. The point was Mick SAID x number of years to rebuild. The point was why do people expect the rebuilding project to be 2 or 3 years when it was clearly stated by Mick and agreed upon by the AD, that it was 5 years?

That was the point, clearly stated, and as usual, misconstrued and twisted around.

thank you mick.....................
________
Recall Zoloft (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/zoloft/)

[Not Guilty]

not just say "They'll be better next year" but WHY you believe that.

They have improved every season under Cronin, return every key player next year and add additional talent.

How can you not think they will improve next year?

[PK2]

Do anyone have their record vs. top 25 or top 50 RPI teams this year? I don't know what it is and I think it would be a good gauge of whether we improved or whether we just beat more weak teams this year.

[PK2]

I forgot to say if you have our record vs. last year's against top 25-50 rpi teams. Just curious

[slimm]

They have improved every season under Cronin, return every key player next year and add additional talent.

How can you not think they will improve next year?

I think a lot of people on here see this on paper, but there is talent here now and we just dont seem to get anywhere near the best out of it.they should improve, but all the talent in the world will get you nowhere without the desire. as has been posted before, there seems to be something else going on karma wise that aint good
________
MEDICAL MARIJUANA CARD (http://medicalmarijuanacard.info)

[Not Guilty]

I think a lot of people on here see this on paper, but there is talent here now and we just dont seem to get anywhere near the best out of it.they should improve, but all the talent in the world will get you nowhere without the desire. as has been posted before, there seems to be something else going on karma wise that aint good

If you believe that, you aren't being reasonable or objective. This team was predicted to finish 11th in the Big East. They exceeded those expectations. And that includes the late season meltdown.

Obviously things still need to get better, but there has been improvement every year, including exceeding expectations in Big East play each of the past two seasons.

[CincinnatiUSC]

FYI, Devan Downey made the SEC All-Defensive team this year.

http://secsports.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=3&url_article_id=12348&change_well_id=2

As for the Bearcats, I think we make the tournament next year. I have my doubts about Mick as a coach right now (as most do). If we can beat some big time teams next year, when they have a good game too, I'll rest easier. As of right now, it's hard to be happy with the program the way we displayed poor effort the past couple of games.

What I don't want to see is a UC tournament team that doesn't beat a couple of top notch teams. The end goal is to have a coach that can win it all. Mick needs to get his players to rebound better, play tougher defense, have better court awareness, and most importantly connect with him and his staff. If letting some guys go is the answer, make it happen. Player development. Hustle. Trust. Wins. that's all I ask, and right now all of those categories seem to be lacking.

[LongTimer]

FYI, Devan Downey made the SEC All-Defensive team this year.

http://secsports.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=3&url_article_id=12348&change_well_id=2

As for the Bearcats, I think we make the tournament next year. I have my doubts about Mick as a coach right now (as most do). If we can beat some big time teams next year, when they have a good game too, I'll rest easier. As of right now, it's hard to be happy with the program the way we displayed poor effort the past couple of games.

What I don't want to see is a UC tournament team that doesn't beat a couple of top notch teams. The end goal is to have a coach that can win it all. Mick needs to get his players to rebound better, play tougher defense, have better court awareness, and most importantly connect with him and his staff. If letting some guys go is the answer, make it happen. Player development. Hustle. Trust. Wins. that's all I ask, and right now all of those categories seem to be lacking.

100% accurate and well stated!

[Cats4Ever]

If you believe that, you aren't being reasonable or objective. This team was predicted to finish 11th in the Big East. They exceeded those expectations. And that includes the late season meltdown.

Obviously things still need to get better, but there has been improvement every year, including exceeding expectations in Big East play each of the past two seasons.

The other way to look at the standings is if Georgetown and Notre Dame had played to their predicted position, UC would have been 11th.

Softening the ooc schedule and beating the directional dakota's is fools gold.

So which is it?

I see undisciplined play by the cats - a bad sign.

[cincycpaw]

They have improved every season under Cronin, return every key player next year and add additional talent.

How can you not think they will improve next year?

Not saying they won't, be here is why I am concerned...

1) Ended the season pitfully (each of the last 2 years)...I'm concerned that they have not really improved throught the seasons and that they do not know how to respond to the pressure of March basketball.

2) I don't think Bishop has really gotten any better
3) I don't think that Vaughn has improved at all either (though he is a good player)
4) Biggie is non-existant, no improvement
5) Wilks - I don't see much improvement at all, he is very sloppy
6) Davis - had 1 stretch where he seemed like it was starting to click, not sure if that was growth of a short-term improvement
7) Mitchell - on the bench at the end of the season...again??? He improved, but I think he will be gone.
8) Toyloy is a decent effort guy, but his ceiling is low
9) Williams - I think he is also a decent player, I worry about his durability and he may not even be back
10) Cash is unproven still and coming off an injury...I sure hope he's at 100% early in the season...everyone seems to be hitching our success to this kid, I hope he can respond
11) Dixon - I'm actualyl not that worried abotu this kid...he's give effort, hope he can improve his shot though


I guess my main concern is the lack of improvement I see in most players individually as well as the team as a whole at the end of the year.

I'm not syaing they won't improve, but I have major concerns. It's Vaughn's last season and it must end in a NCAA tourney bid with at least 1 win...or it is a complete failure.

[cincycpaw]

If you believe that, you aren't being reasonable or objective. This team was predicted to finish 11th in the Big East. They exceeded those expectations. And that includes the late season meltdown.

Obviously things still need to get better, but there has been improvement every year, including exceeding expectations in Big East play each of the past two seasons.


Did they really exceed those expectations?

I mean, I know they finished 9th in the conference, but losing 5 of 6 down the stretch and losing to the #16 seed in the 1st game of the conference tournament? I think they failed to meet the expectation because at the end of the year, they weren't even the 11th best team in the Big East.

[long suffering UC fan]

If the Downey talk needs to stop, then you should also stop the Mick started with nothing talk. That also happened 3 years ago and it isn't factually true either!

Very fair point.

I went to UC a LONG time ago, and the News Record wasn't exactly known at that time for allowing dissenting opinions. I've not been a reader since then, so I cannot say if that is still true, but I'd bet if allowed, another student writer may just have easily bashed on Mick instead of defending him.

The article attempts to downplay the past three losses, by saying that after the WV win, everyone was pleased. But the WV win suckered us into believing the program had passed the point where losing to 3 awful teams in a row would be possible. I don't believe you can downplay such a collapse, and have any more of your points being taken without a grain of salt.

Whenever asked, yes, the opposing coaches and TV people say Mick will get the job done, and his supporters always point to this, but I've not really ever heard those types of people say that a new coach doesn't have what it takes, or that "he'll probably fail". So I don't put much stock in that.

To this point, Mick has not done much to make me believe that he will get this team where most of us want it to be (some will be unhappy with anything but the final 4 every year).

As much as many of us would not be disappointed if Mick were sent packing now, he certainly will be given at least next year to prove he is capable, and that may be the best move, I don't really know. Another late season collapse, or NIT bid next year, should definately convince them to fire Mick at the end of next season, unless he somehow miraculously sets up a top 10 class for 2010-2011.

On the positive side, Dan Hoard said that he has seen Wright, and the transfer play in practice, and believes that Wright will be a good player and the transfer should produce at a Mike Williams level, or maybe better. With those additions, this team may indeed make the tournament next year, and that would be great. Everyone will be thrilled.

Back to being realistic: even if those two guys pan out as Dan Hoard hopes, and no one else gets injured, it doesn't sound as though they will add enough to get us to the top 25 or to compete for the Big East title. Simply getting to the NCAA tournament will eventually not be enough (many ripped the last coach for seldom reaching the sweet 16). How far we are from that now, kind of puts in perspective how far this program really has to go, vs. "look how far we've come". I'd argue that it is easier to take a program from 175th to 94th than from 94th to the top 16.

[catsfan32]

^Lets make the tourney first before we put expectations on winning the league. Isn't that what everyone wants to make the NCAA. I would love to win the BE but 5-6 years of finishing in the top 6 is just fine with me too. That means we would be in the NCAA and a legit sweet 16, or elite 8 team.

[ralph1950]

The other way to look at the standings is if Georgetown and Notre Dame had played to their predicted position, UC would have been 11th.

Softening the ooc schedule and beating the directional dakota's is fools gold.

So which is it?

I see undisciplined play by the cats - a bad sign.

Another way to look at it is IF John Reik had been cleared by the NCAA UC would be Big East Champs and headed to the Final 4.

Another way to look at it is IF Cash Wright had not got injured UC would have finished in the top 4 of the Big East and won about 25 games to date.

[cincycpaw]

Another way to look at it is IF John Reik had been cleared by the NCAA UC would be Big East Champs and headed to the Final 4.

Another way to look at it is IF Cash Wright had not got injured UC would have finished in the top 4 of the Big East and won about 25 games to date.


Yeah, the crazy way to look at it...

[ralph1950]

Does anyone have any info on our schedule for next year, maybe what tourney's we will be playing in? I thought someone said the Maui Inv? I think we had a decent OOC schedule this year with some tough opponents, sure we had some cupcakes but it was to bad in my opinion. Any news would be appreciated! P.S. I hope we land Vinson and a PG for 09!

Maui Invitational, at XU, at UAB, Memphis at FTA is what is known so far.

[ralph1950]

Yeah, the crazy way to look at it...

Nothing crazy about it...........................

[catsfan32]

You sure about the Maui, i looked on their website for 2010 teams and we weren't listed!

[Not Guilty]

The other way to look at the standings is if Georgetown and Notre Dame had played to their predicted position, UC would have been 11th.

Thats a stupid way to look at it given UC beat Georgetown twice and beat Notre Dame by double digits. UC is part of the reason those teams didn't finish above them.

[Not Guilty]

You sure about the Maui, i looked on their website for 2010 teams and we weren't listed!

Louisville backed out for some reason and UC entered in their place. It wouldn't have been an option if UofL were there since teams from the same conference can't play in the same preseason tournaments.

[Lobot]

Louisville backed out for some reason and UC entered in their place. It wouldn't have been an option if UofL were there since teams from the same conference can't play in the same preseason tournaments.

Hmmm I did not know that rule existed. Learn something every day

[Not Guilty]

Hmmm I did not know that rule existed. Learn something every day

You can't play conference opponents in the out conference schedule, and if two teams from the same conference are in a preseason tournament there is a chance they will meet, which is against NCAA rules I believe.

[catsfan32]

Wow that is gonna be a heck of a tourney, Arizona, Wisconsin, Gonzaga, Colorado, Maryland, Vanderbilt, and of course Chaminade. Hopefully we get some big wins on the Island and start off the season right!

[slimm]

If you believe that, you aren't being reasonable or objective. This team was predicted to finish 11th in the Big East. They exceeded those expectations. And that includes the late season meltdown.

Obviously things still need to get better, but there has been improvement every year, including exceeding expectations in Big East play each of the past two seasons.

thats ok, but I feel im being reasonable & objective. there has been over all improvement, but its jaded by the fact of OOC games were bad teams, we have collapsed down the stretch badly the past two years and done so while playing with very little enthusiasm,desire or interest. I cant help but feel that if these solid players were in a different program, we would be reading about how they are coming along nicely.yes they finished better than 11th as predicted and if you feel that is a noteworthy improvement,great. but perception is reality, and the perception is something is wrong and this team should be better .
________
RufousSexyGrl (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/RufousSexyGrl/)

[catsfan32]

This may be looking ahead a bit, but i think we can do pretty well in the Maui, Maryland will be tough as they dont lose a lot, Wisc should be a bit down with several key players gone, Vanderbilt could be tough as they are young and return a lot, Arizona could be tough but i think Budinger is gone and maybe Wise as well, Colorado is young but not to talented, Gonzaga is young and graduates some key players in Pargo and Downs. And we all know about UC they return just about the entire team barring some transfers and bring in some quality recruits.
Hopefully its gonna be a good start to the year and get us on our way to a successful season in 09/10

[Doss]

had not went to Memphis, we would have won it all.

If wishes and buts were candy and nuts it would be Christmas every day of the year.

Another way to look at it is IF John Reik had been cleared by the NCAA UC would be Big East Champs and headed to the Final 4.

Another way to look at it is IF Cash Wright had not got injured UC would have finished in the top 4 of the Big East and won about 25 games to date.

[Not Guilty]

thats ok, but I feel im being reasonable & objective. there has been over all improvement, but its jaded by the fact of OOC games were bad teams, we have collapsed down the stretch badly the past two years and done so while playing with very little enthusiasm,desire or interest. I cant help but feel that if these solid players were in a different program, we would be reading about how they are coming along nicely.yes they finished better than 11th as predicted and if you feel that is a noteworthy improvement,great. but perception is reality, and the perception is something is wrong and this team should be better .

That's simply not true. Look at computer rankings like Sagarin and Pomeroy. We have been a better team every year under Mick. Its not jaded by anything but the fact that our performance overall has been better. You just can't control your emotions enough to look at the big picture.

[Cats4Ever]

113 --> 98 --> 85

that pattern predicts 74 for next year. woohoo!

[LongTimer]

^Lets make the tourney first before we put expectations on winning the league. Isn't that what everyone wants to make the NCAA. I would love to win the BE but 5-6 years of finishing in the top 6 is just fine with me too. That means we would be in the NCAA and a legit sweet 16, or elite 8 team.

Absolutely not.....we don't just want to make the tournament, we want a minimum of Sweet 16. We had a coach that got us to the tournament every year (and won at least one game in the tournament) and that wasn't good enough. Mick isn't getting cut any breaks for just making the tournament. It's two wins 80% of the time or he's outta here!! We can't be hippocritical as Bearcat fans. Just making the tournament is not acceptable.

[catsfan32]

^Hence the reference to the sweet 16's and elite 8's, and i was referring to the next 4-6 years, i dont know about you but i dont forsee us winning the national championship in the next 4-6! Also, i never said i wouldnt want to win the BE, just putting realistic goals for what we can do in the next half decade.

[ralph1950]

Absolutely not.....we don't just want to make the tournament, we want a minimum of Sweet 16. We had a coach that got us to the tournament every year (and won at least one game in the tournament) and that wasn't good enough. Mick isn't getting cut any breaks for just making the tournament. It's two wins 80% of the time or he's outta here!! We can't be hippocritical as Bearcat fans. Just making the tournament is not acceptable.

If you are not the University President, a member of the Board of Trustees, or the AD, you and all fans for that matter, have absolutely no say at all as to whether Mick stays or goes. Are you any of them?

[LongTimer]

^Hence the reference to the sweet 16's and elite 8's, and i was referring to the next 4-6 years, i dont know about you but i dont forsee us winning the national championship in the next 4-6! Also, i never said i wouldnt want to win the BE, just putting realistic goals for what we can do in the next half decade.

We all know that final fours plus elite 8's are very possible in 3-4 years, especially when you have a great coach! Now you are adding another half decade onto what we have already endured and still not expecting some great runs into the tournament. Hmmm, guess those 2nd round losses are starting to get more respect in here.

[LongTimer]

If you are not the University President, a member of the Board of Trustees, or the AD, you and all fans for that matter, have absolutely no say at all as to whether Mick stays or goes. Are you any of them?

How did you know that I am one of them Ralph? I thought I was disguising it better than that!

[joe]

Once again, I hate to keep repeating this, but everyone keeps posting incorrect facts. When Cronin arrived, he had two scholarship players. One was one of the best point guards in the nation. He talked to Cronin and decided that he wanted to transfer. A few weeks later, he changed his mind and went back to Cronin to say he wanted to stay. Cronin told him that he would not accept him back. I remember Cronin saying in the paper..."sometimes, you just have to live with the decisions you make". Cronin was being a hard-***, trying to show who's boss, whatever. Bottom line, he ran Devan Downey off. Put Devan Downey as a sophomore on Mick's 1st team and what do you have? Put Devan Downey as a junior onto last year's team and how do you think we would have done down the stretch? Do you think his presence would have allowed us to defeat Belmont and Illinois St? Add Devan downey as a senior to this year's team. How would we have done with possibly the best point guard in the nation this year...a point guard that can also score 20 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to give Cronin the credit for starting with nothing. That one decision, which is 100% on him, has single-handedly impacted our recovery in a huge way. With Downey, we probably make the dance last year and this year, we would have been a player in the Big east standings.

I can promise you, if Mick could have a "do over" on that, he would have done that different. Of course, you will never hear him say that though, at least not publicly.

gregg

[catsfan32]

LOL you do know half a decade is 5 years, in my post i said 4-6 = just about a half decade of making the tournament every year starting 09/10 season, and i thought the common consensus for a deep run in the tourney is sweet 16 or better?

[LongTimer]

LOL you do know half a decade is 5 years, in my post i said 4-6 = just about a half decade of making the tournament every year starting 09/10 season, and i thought the common consensus for a deep run in the tourney is sweet 16 or better?

lol...yes I do....let me explain it to you....we have sucked for 3 years already...add 5 to that and that equals 8 years of no good runs in the tounament based on what you said.

[catsfan32]

No, good runs are sweet 16's and elite 8's, and in my original post that is what i said! Not once did i mention would we suck for another 5 years, just the opposite, i think we will finish in the top 6 of the BE the next 5 years, i said we prob wont win it but top 6 is pretty good!

[London 'Cat]

The other way to look at the standings is if Georgetown and Notre Dame had played to their predicted position, UC would have been 11th.

Softening the ooc schedule and beating the directional dakota's is fools gold.

So which is it?

I see undisciplined play by the cats - a bad sign.

IF those teams had. They didn't. Did they underachieve this season? If your answer is yes, then logically UC overachieved. There is no deying the fact that the 'Cats were picked to finish lower in the BEast than they did.

[slimm]

If you are not the University President, a member of the Board of Trustees, or the AD, you and all fans for that matter, have absolutely no say at all as to whether Mick stays or goes. Are you any of them?

I dare say you forgot big time donors. if you think the high end donors ( few as they may be )dont have a voice, your kidding yourself
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[LongTimer]

I dare say you forgot big time donors. if you think the high end donors ( few as they may be )dont have a voice, your kidding yourself

Ralph forgets a lot of things, but he means well I guess. He's a great Bearcat!

[Billy Don]

If you are not the University President, a member of the Board of Trustees, or the AD, you and all fans for that matter, have absolutely no say at all as to whether Mick stays or goes. Are you any of them?

I hope the next UC president is a sports minded president like Louisville has. Thomas and Cronin will be gone and UC basketball can get back to where it belongs.

[Not Guilty]

I hope the next UC president is a sports minded president like Louisville has. Thomas and Cronin will be gone and UC basketball can get back to where it belongs.

Mike Thomas hired Brian Kelly. He isn't going anywhere.

[ralph1950]

I hope the next UC president is a sports minded president like Louisville has. Thomas and Cronin will be gone and UC basketball can get back to where it belongs.

And who would take their place?

[London 'Cat]

Mike Thomas hired Brian Kelly. He isn't going anywhere.

Couldn't agree more. Thomas is a solid AD, IMO.

[jeffto]

Take it easy please. Remember, expressing sarcasm on a message board is difficult.This is the type of "babysitting" moderator comment that is totally unnecessary.

[Bcat]

I liked this response to Bo(ob)

Bo don't know!

The similarity Mick Cronin and Tony Yates is striking:
1. Tony played at Lockland Wayne. Mick played at LaSalle. Note the "L"
2. Both graduated from UC. Tony played PG on 2 NCAA Championship teams. Mick played videos.
3. Tony was considered to be a great recruiter for a big time school (IL). Mick was considered a great recruiter for big time FHOF coaches (Pitino and HUGGS)
4. Both were hired to return the program to it's top 10 Status.
5. Tony could not bench coach. Mick can't bench coach.
6. Tony was "fired" via opening Yates-Wyler Dodge
7. Mick will be fired and open Cronin-Wyler Hyundai

Even though I laughed at each of these points and have only been told and have read about how bad the Yates era was(due to not remembering b/c of my young age at the time), this is ridiculous. I have seen where you are very negative about the Bearcats and Mick, but you have got to realize what it takes to rebuild and where the program was 3 years ago. This program could have gone to either 18 win season in 3 years or 8 win season in three years. Tradition and past success has helped keep it afloat but Mick is doing a great job. With the recruiting news that will be out soon and the changes for the upcoming season, I think that every fan should be happy really soon.

[Bearcat Jeff]

I'm still waiting on somebody to tell me how it will benefit the program to have a coaching change. It will not and it's not going to happen. Mike Thomas has done a nice job. Mick Cronin was a good hire. There are so many unrealistic expectation in regards to this basketball program that it's crazy. I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me who would have this program on top of the world in 3 seasons following the mess that Mick inherited.

[jeffto]

Once again, I hate to keep repeating this, but everyone keeps posting incorrect facts. When Cronin arrived, he had two scholarship players. One was one of the best point guards in the nation. He talked to Cronin and decided that he wanted to transfer. A few weeks later, he changed his mind and went back to Cronin to say he wanted to stay. Cronin told him that he would not accept him back. I remember Cronin saying in the paper..."sometimes, you just have to live with the decisions you make". Cronin was being a hard-***, trying to show who's boss, whatever. Bottom line, he ran Devan Downey off. Put Devan Downey as a sophomore on Mick's 1st team and what do you have? Put Devan Downey as a junior onto last year's team and how do you think we would have done down the stretch? Do you think his presence would have allowed us to defeat Belmont and Illinois St? Add Devan downey as a senior to this year's team. How would we have done with possibly the best point guard in the nation this year...a point guard that can also score 20 points a game? Sorry, but I refuse to give Cronin the credit for starting with nothing. That one decision, which is 100% on him, has single-handedly impacted our recovery in a huge way. With Downey, we probably make the dance last year and this year, we would have been a player in the Big east standings.

Are you really suggesting that a win-at-any-cost attitude is the best direction for our program? The coach get's to set the standards of conduct. I'm glad Mick had the backbone to not let a player dictate the terms of his status with the team.

[Bearcat Jeff]

With the recruiting news that will be out soon and the changes for the upcoming season, I think that every fan should be happy really soon. is this inside info?
Is this inside info?

[Bearcat Jeff]

What he had when he arrived doesn't matter. What he started the first season with does. The facts are true. What did he have when school and his first basketball season started? That's all that matters my friend. Not who was here when he was hired, who might have been here, or whatever. Downey was not here when the season started and never played a game for Mick.

[ralph1950]

is this inside info?[/B]
Is this inside info?

I am very happy now and I know that under Mick the future of UC basketball has never been brighter.

[Aaron]

Do anyone have their record vs. top 25 or top 50 RPI teams this year? I don't know what it is and I think it would be a good gauge of whether we improved or whether we just beat more weak teams this year.

The Cats had 4 top 50 wins last year compared to the 2 from this year. We also played a much tougher schedule last year. If you want to get technical Mick 1st year had only one less quality win compared to this year. AK one year of coaching we had 13 top 100 wins with a SOS of 5. So, to answer your question, no, not much improvement if any.

[jeffto]

With the recruiting news that will be out soon and the changes for the upcoming season, I think that every fan should be happy really soon.
I've been around long enough to realize that recruiting news and upcoming "changes" are meaningless.

Sign the next coming of Michael Jordan and it's grounds for optimism, not happiness. Happiness comes from Wins and tourney appearances. Press clippings don't win games.

That's why all these posts about our NCAA championship rings had Cash or Riek played are just wishful thinking. One or both could be stiffs for all we know.

[LongTimer]

Even though I laughed at each of these points and have only been told and have read about how bad the Yates era was(due to not remembering b/c of my young age at the time), this is ridiculous. I have seen where you are very negative about the Bearcats and Mick, but you have got to realize what it takes to rebuild and where the program was 3 years ago. This program could have gone to either 18 win season in 3 years or 8 win season in three years. Tradition and past success has helped keep it afloat but Mick is doing a great job. With the recruiting news that will be out soon and the changes for the upcoming season, I think that every fan should be happy really soon.

Longtimer<<<<<<Looking forward to the happiness!!!

[LongTimer]

Are you really suggesting that a win-at-any-cost attitude is the best direction for our program? The coach get's to set the standards of conduct. I'm glad Mick had the backbone to not let a player dictate the terms of his status with the team.

Good point. You are correct. However, in hindsight, I wish he would have let Downey stay. I don't think we would be arguing so much in here if he had.

[LongTimer]

What he had when he arrived doesn't matter. What he started the first season with does. The facts are true. What did he have when school and his first basketball season started? That's all that matters my friend. Not who was here when he was hired, who might have been here, or whatever. Downey was not here when the season started and never played a game for Mick.

Good point...he had at least 4 three star recruits that year...Crowell, Gentry, Vaughn, and Warren. Vaughn will probably be the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the program. He also recruited John Williamson, that for some reason wasn't rated, but by all accounts was one of the best recruits, because his Juco stats were amazing and he was a huge effort guy. He had Conner Barwin back, who had played extensively for Andy Kennedy the year before and had become a pretty effective player. He also recruited the #4 rated big man in the nation, Hernol Hall and another good big man Adam H who unfortunately were both ineligible. He also recruited 6'8" Marcus Sikes who was recruited and had played for a good Georgia team and had gotten a lot of minutes as a freshman. And, we also had 6'7" Juco Cedric McGowen, who played extremely well that year, but faded in year 2 under Mick. He also picked up 6' 11" John Allen as a transfer. So, if we are looking at what he had and not where he started, then the cupboard wasn't that bare based on player's history and ratings.

[slimm]

I know that under Mick the future of UC basketball has never been brighter.

wow...and you probably said that with a straight face
________
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[catsfan32]

Are you really saying putting together a bunch of hodge podge juco's together, Mick should have had a better team. To say that players that had never played together should have done better than they did. To not know what the chemistry might have been. And you are actually using a walk-on football player to defend you as well! Really, i mean come on really, there is no way anyone could have wished for more than they did. Anything better would have been one of the best patchwork jobs ever!

[London 'Cat]

Good point. You are correct. However, in hindsight, I wish he would have let Downey stay. I don't think we would be arguing so much in here if he had.

I think it's fair to say that all of us wish Downey had stayed. He would have made a difference, for sure. But I agree with Jeffto's point about that being the coach's call.

[jeffto]

Good point...he had at least 4 three star recruits that year...Crowell, Gentry, Vaughn, and Warren. Vaughn will probably be the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the program. He also recruited John Williamson, that for some reason wasn't rated, but by all accounts was one of the best recruits, because his Juco stats were amazing and he was a huge effort guy. He had Conner Barwin back, who had played extensively for Andy Kennedy the year before and had become a pretty effective player. He also recruited the #4 rated big man in the nation, Hernol Hall and another good big man Adam H who unfortunately were both ineligible. He also recruited 6'8" Marcus Sikes who was recruited and had played for a good Georgia team and had gotten a lot of minutes as a freshman. And, we also had 6'7" Juco Cedric McGowen, who played extremely well that year, but faded in year 2 under Mick. He also picked up 6' 11" John Allen as a transfer. So, if we are looking at what he had and not where he started, then the cupboard wasn't that bare based on player's history and ratings.

As my earlier post pointed out. Press clippings (and ratings) don't mean a damn thing. Those players were mostly stiffs who had no business playing in the Big East. And before you start arguing that Mick recruited them, keep in mind these were the best he could get at the time.

The cupboard was bare and no amount of revising the history is going to change that fact.

That being said, the cupboard isn't bare now. The current team just wasn't coached well enough to win as many games as their talent should have allowed.

[slimm]

The current team just wasn't coached well enough to win as many games as their talent should have allowed.


this point has been made a few times. the question is WHY isn't this team performing up to their supposed ability?
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[Billy Don]

A

That being said, the cupboard isn't bare now. The current team just wasn't coached well enough to win as many games as their talent should have allowed.

There is no doubt in my mind that Huggins would have had this current UC team in the NCAA tournament. On the being young excuse. Ruoff on freshman Ebanks 20 points in the win over Pitt. "at this point in the season you aren't a freshman anymore".

[Bearcat Jeff]

Good point...he had at least 4 three star recruits that year...Crowell, Gentry, Vaughn, and Warren. Vaughn will probably be the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the program. He also recruited John Williamson, that for some reason wasn't rated, but by all accounts was one of the best recruits, because his Juco stats were amazing and he was a huge effort guy. He had Conner Barwin back, who had played extensively for Andy Kennedy the year before and had become a pretty effective player. He also recruited the #4 rated big man in the nation, Hernol Hall and another good big man Adam H who unfortunately were both ineligible. He also recruited 6'8" Marcus Sikes who was recruited and had played for a good Georgia team and had gotten a lot of minutes as a freshman. And, we also had 6'7" Juco Cedric McGowen, who played extremely well that year, but faded in year 2 under Mick. He also picked up 6' 11" John Allen as a transfer. So, if we are looking at what he had and not where he started, then the cupboard wasn't that bare based on player's history and ratings.
Sikes was what he was. A streaky shooter who wanted to play small forward. Williamson was a 6'4" power forward in the BEast and I loved his heart. McGowen was a role player asked to play a starting and leadership role. John Allen, are you serious? Throw in the league and it's strength this past season and you have what you have. I said at the beginning of the season that this team could be better and have a worse league record. There were so many returning players and the top of the league was stacked. This team does not have the talent the top teams in this league have. That is apparent. I hold Mick accountable for the collapse at the seasons end. Absolutely. I do recognize the progress as well. Davis was better. Mitchell was better. Dixon and Gates improved. Wilks was better. My biggest disappointment was Bishop. If this team had a slasher on the wing it would give it a new dimension. You have to be able to penetrate.

[jeffto]

this point has been made a few times. the question is WHY isn't this team performing up to their supposed ability?That is the question isn't it. I guess they all just forgot how to shoot the ball or they all just went into a shooting slump at the same time.

[Billy Don]

I just noticed there were 7 locked out threads in a row! Is that a record?

[jeffto]

There is no doubt in my mind that Huggins would have had this current UC team in the NCAA tournament. On the being young excuse. Ruoff on freshman Ebanks 20 points in the win over Pitt. "at this point in the season you aren't a freshman anymore".Couldn't you find any coach except H to make this comparison. Is he the only coach you follow and respect?

[cincycpaw]

Couldn't you find any coach except H to make this comparison. Is he the only coach you follow and respect?

I'm sure...plenty of coaches could have had this Bearcat team playing better at the end of the year than Mick did. That's one long list.

[LongTimer]

Couldn't you find any coach except H to make this comparison. Is he the only coach you follow and respect?

You mean the same coach you admitted a day or so ago that you were excited about following in the BE tournament and the post season. Yep, that coach....you closet Huggins lover!!!

[Billy Don]

Couldn't you find any coach except H to make this comparison. Is he the only coach you follow and respect?

Of course not. There are at least 6 coachs just in the Big East I would take in a heartbeat. Nationwide the list would grow to at least 50 easy. I should send the list to MT so he could save the search committee money.

[jeffto]

You mean the same coach you admitted a day or so ago that you were excited about following in the BE tournament and the post season. Yep, that coach....you closet Huggins lover!!!I made the comment to Billy D only because I didn't want to see another thread close.

I'll be pulling for WVU today.

[Mick's Da Man]

Good point...he had at least 4 three star recruits that year...Crowell, Gentry, Vaughn, and Warren. Vaughn will probably be the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the program. He also recruited John Williamson, that for some reason wasn't rated, but by all accounts was one of the best recruits, because his Juco stats were amazing and he was a huge effort guy. He had Conner Barwin back, who had played extensively for Andy Kennedy the year before and had become a pretty effective player. He also recruited the #4 rated big man in the nation, Hernol Hall and another good big man Adam H who unfortunately were both ineligible. He also recruited 6'8" Marcus Sikes who was recruited and had played for a good Georgia team and had gotten a lot of minutes as a freshman. And, we also had 6'7" Juco Cedric McGowen, who played extremely well that year, but faded in year 2 under Mick. He also picked up 6' 11" John Allen as a transfer. So, if we are looking at what he had and not where he started, then the cupboard wasn't that bare based on player's history and ratings.


Wow. Talk about revisionist history.

Too many incorrect and inflated facts. Not even worth the time correcting it.

You could probably make Phyllis Diller look like Jessica Alba, too!

Jeffto is dead on.

As my earlier post pointed out. Press clippings (and ratings) don't mean a damn thing. Those players were mostly stiffs who had no business playing in the Big East. And before you start arguing that Mick recruited them, keep in mind these were the best he could get at the time.

The cupboard was bare and no amount of revising the history is going to change that fact.

That being said, the cupboard isn't bare now. The current team just wasn't coached well enough to win as many games as their talent should have allowed.

[LongTimer]

Wow. Talk about revisionist history.

Too many incorrect and inflated facts. Not even worth the time correcting it.

You could probably make Phyllis Diller look like Jessica Alba, too!

Jeffto is dead on.

Or like you trying to make Mick Cronin look like Bob Huggins. lol...enough said!

[LongTimer]

As my earlier post pointed out. Press clippings (and ratings) don't mean a damn thing. Those players were mostly stiffs who had no business playing in the Big East. And before you start arguing that Mick recruited them, keep in mind these were the best he could get at the time.
The cupboard was bare and no amount of revising the history is going to change that fact.

That being said, the cupboard isn't bare now. The current team just wasn't coached well enough to win as many games as their talent should have allowed.

Hmmmm, best we could get huh? I thought he was on the verge of signing Hasheem Thabeet, Eugene Harvey, Tyler Smith, Vernon Teel, etc., plus all the other guys on our recruiting archives...he just didn't get the job done. The great recruiter....that's what we were all told...and he didn't close any deals. When we signed many of those guys you call stiffs, Mick raved about them, but once we saw them play, they became stiffs. Those so-called stiffs played with great effort and enthusiasm and upset more teams last year than the stiffs we have this year, and won as many Big East games as we did this year.

[UCEE73]

I dare say you forgot big time donors. if you think the high end donors ( few as they may be )dont have a voice, your kidding yourself

Are you implying that you are on speaking terms with big-time donors?

[London 'Cat]

Hmmmm, best we could get huh? I thought he was on the verge of signing Hasheem Thabeet, Eugene Harvey, Tyler Smith, Vernon Teel, etc., plus all the other guys on our recruiting archives...he just didn't get the job done. The great recruiter....that's what we were all told...and he didn't close any deals. When we signed many of those guys you call stiffs, Mick raved about them, but once we saw them play, they became stiffs. Those so-called stiffs played with great effort and enthusiasm and upset more teams last year than the stiffs we have this year, and won as many Big East games as we did this year.

I don't know that he was ever "on the verge" of signing any of those guys. He did recruit them, obviously not successfully. I would also dispute that Cronin "raved" about them. I do agree that they played hard and probably overachieved given their relative talent level to other BEast teams.

[STKohls]

Are you implying that you are on speaking terms with big-time donors?

You don't have to be on speaking terms with the George Smith's to know that several of them have the ear of the AD and President. In fact, for those of you who watched the game at MSG, Nancy Zimpher herself was sitting right near courtside with a group of them.

I'm sure their opinions vary as much as the posters here, and many of them are as passionate about the team as we are.

[Aaron]

I don't know if Longtimer is in personal contact w/ the donors or not, but there were many statements/articles claiming they had pretty much locked up these recruits. Such as Bearcat Liar...Thats why we shouldn't buy into any recruits until they sign their letter of intent!

[Lobot]

Folks, some of you continue to post messages directed at solely at other members. Most of these have a negative overtone. If you haven't noticed these posts are being deleted. We will continue to delete them if it continues. Don't waste you time posting them. Focus on the subject of the thread and leave each other alone.

[Mick's Da Man]

Hmmmm, best we could get huh? I thought he was on the verge of signing Hasheem Thabeet, Eugene Harvey, Tyler Smith, Vernon Teel, etc., plus all the other guys on our recruiting archives...he just didn't get the job done. The great recruiter....that's what we were all told...and he didn't close any deals. When we signed many of those guys you call stiffs, Mick raved about them, but once we saw them play, they became stiffs. Those so-called stiffs played with great effort and enthusiasm and upset more teams last year than the stiffs we have this year, and won as many Big East games as we did this year.



Yep, those so-called stiffs "upset more teams last year than the stiffs we have this year". Hmmm. Your statement concedes that last year's stiffs were different than this year's stiffs........admitting that this year's team is a completely different set of stiffs.
Since your statement completely admits that, then this year's stiffs deserve the same amount of time as last year's stiffs to upset more teams in the Big East. Last year's stiffs were in their second season. This year's stiffs were mainly in their first season and managed just as many Big East wins as last year's stiffs.

In their second season, this year's stiffs should accomplish great things since they already matched last year's stiffs Big East win total this year.

I simplified it for you. :cool:

[slimm]

Yep, those so-called stiffs "upset more teams last year than the stiffs we have this year". Hmmm. Your statement concedes that last year's stiffs were different than this year's stiffs........admitting that this year's team is a completely different set of stiffs.
Since your statement completely admits that, then this year's stiffs deserve the same amount of time as last year's stiffs to upset more teams in the Big East. Last year's stiffs were in their second season. This year's stiffs were mainly in their first season and managed just as many Big East wins as last year's stiffs.

In their second season, this year's stiffs should accomplish great things since they already matched last year's stiffs Big East win total this year.

I simplified it for you. :cool:

very nice, I like that, but when did we get Joe Stiffend back?
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[jeffto]

You don't have to be on speaking terms with the George Smith's to know that several of them have the ear of the AD and President. In fact, for those of you who watched the game at MSG, Nancy Zimpher herself was sitting right near courtside with a group of them.

I'm sure their opinions vary as much as the posters here, and many of them are as passionate about the team as we are.Heck one of them, Billy D, actually posts on this forum!

[London 'Cat]

Yep, those so-called stiffs "upset more teams last year than the stiffs we have this year". Hmmm. Your statement concedes that last year's stiffs were different than this year's stiffs........admitting that this year's team is a completely different set of stiffs.
Since your statement completely admits that, then this year's stiffs deserve the same amount of time as last year's stiffs to upset more teams in the Big East. Last year's stiffs were in their second season. This year's stiffs were mainly in their first season and managed just as many Big East wins as last year's stiffs.

In their second season, this year's stiffs should accomplish great things since they already matched last year's stiffs Big East win total this year.

I simplified it for you. :cool:

I don't mean to get involved in your argument with LT, but the facts do not support your rationale either. Bishop, McClain, Davis, Mitchell and Wilks were in their second year in '08-'09. Vaughn is in his third year in '08-'09. Only three players, Dixon, Gates and Toyloy, are in their first year. The vast majority of the team was at least in its second year.

LT - The difference is those players primarily relied upon last year were in their fourth season post-high school. These players are, at most, in their third, inclduing Williams due to his transfer and injury years out.

You each raise valid points and invalid points.

[Lobot]

Some of you need to knock it down a notch. We aren't messing around when I say that the admins are not putting up with negative posts towards other members. Posts that serve no purpose other than to criticize other members will be deleted. Period.

[Mick's Da Man]

I don't mean to get involved in your argument with LT, but the facts do not support your rationale either. Bishop, McClain, Davis, Mitchell and Wilks were in their second year in '08-'09. Vaughn is in his third year in '08-'09. Only three players, Dixon, Gates and Toyloy, are in their first year. The vast majority of the team was at least in its second year.

LT - The difference is those players primarily relied upon last year were in their fourth season post-high school. These players are, at most, in their third, inclduing Williams due to his transfer and injury years out.

You each raise valid points and invalid points.

The only thing that matters is how much time players logged.

The stiffs from the first two seasons were primarily Sikes, Gentry, Warren, Adam H., and Williamson. Starting lineup Mick's first season was McGowan, Williamson, Sikes, Warren, Vaughn, and Gentry coming off the bench. Ron Allen, Connor Barwin. Tim Crowell. Second season, starting lineup was PG Warren, SG Vaughn, SF Bishop, PF Williamson, C Adam H. First guys off the bench Sikes and Gentry. Nobody else hardly played. Larry Davis was coming off an ACL injury from his senior year of high school. Mitchell got suspended. McClain barely saw the floor. Belton probably saw the most playing time. Wilks never saw the floor either. Bishop is pretty much the only soph to log significant time his frosh year.

So of the guys this year, only Bishop and Vaughn had really seen playing time. And Vaughn is playing a new position, the hardest one on the floor. It is a completely different team and lineup. So it is new. Also, Rath pointed out on another board that UC had the 344th out of 360 NCAA teams, least experienced/youngest team in the NCAA's.

So my post was more factually correct than his was. :cool: