We are UC fans.

[DMoney_70]

Now that we have started opposing ridiculous threads, I believe my point was made. We've all reduced ourselves to petty fights over Mick and Bob. It doesn't have to be that way. We are ALL UC Basketball fans and as such, can we just have honest discussion on the topics at hand and not reduce it to pot shots at former and current coaches?

Right now, there's not much to talk about so maybe we're all better served not posting at all but if someone has new info or even rumors gotten from sources that may let us down later, let's enjoy it and stop twisting it into bickering based on our personal bias toward one coach or another.

I think we're all served if Mick becomes a good coach and is able to boost this program back up to where Bob left it. Do you agree?

[LongTimer]

Now that we have started opposing ridiculous threads, I believe my point was made. We've all reduced ourselves to petty fights over Mick and Bob. It doesn't have to be that way. We are ALL UC Basketball fans and as such, can we just have honest discussion on the topics at hand and not reduce it to pot shots at former and current coaches?

Right now, there's not much to talk about so maybe we're all better served not posting at all but if someone has new info or even rumors gotten from sources that may let us down later, let's enjoy it and stop twisting it into bickering based on our personal bias toward one coach or another.

I think we're all served if Mick becomes a good coach and is able to boost this program back up to where Bob left it. Do you agree?

Absolutely agree. Let's also not assume that because people use a little sarcasm or humor along the way, that they have some sort of hidden agenda. Here is my official agenda for anyone that cares to know.

1.) Get Bearcat Basketball back to being an annual Top 20 program.

2.) Improve the image of the program.

3.) Bring the fans back so we have a great winning atmosphere at the Shoe, that can inspire our players to victory, and impress recruits who visit and see it.

4.) Cherish the accomplishments of our past teams (and coach), and strive to see us return to that same success and even surpass it in the future.

5.) Respect each other in here and stop the personal attacks! Understand that there may be a lot we disagree on, but we are united in one thing....that we are all Bearcat fans and we all want a great winning program, with a polished image, that we can all be proud of.

[DMoney_70]

Absolutely PERFECT.

[Carl]

Of course. And we're all Americans, also. The expressions of the fans is an issue of degree. My memory is weak, but Bob promised us an NC. I appreciate what he did, but he did not deliver. Mick said something similar to "When they ask what is the best basketball program in the country, I want the answer to be Cincinnati." Sorry, please feel free to correct my quotation. Being the best will take more than one NC. I would be satisfied with back-to-back NCs. If we only win one, some will say it was a fluke. Two back to back will be enough for me.

For sure, the nay-sayers want NCs also. Some are just trolls, but some of nay-sayers believe we are not on the right track. The jury is still out, we may not be on the right track, but we will be on this track with this coach for a few more years.

We can't jump straight to the NC from here. We have to get back into the NCAA tournament, then win a Big East Championship, before Mick or his successor can recruit enough 5 star guys to take us there.

[Lobot]

See now this thread is making some sense.

[DMoney_70]

Isn't this great? 2 great posts so far.

[Lobot]

I'm gonna throw this in for everyone because this seems like a good thread to put it in.

* Everyone's idea of negativity or level of positive outlook is relative to their own viewpoint. Some people who are accused of being negative really are not being so all the time.

* It's very hard to convey tone in an internet post. Sometimes when someone posts something that looks like they are being elitist that person may not realize it sounds that way.

* It's very hard to convey sarcasm in an internet post even when you throw in some emoticons indicating you're kidding or joking around.

I think everyone probably runs into one or more of these issues every now and then, some more than others. So, take some extra time to really read people's posts rather than automatically assuming you have an always negative or positive poster on your hands and let's see if we can bring things back to a more civil discourse.

[RobPoppeil]

I think we're all served if Mick becomes a good coach and is able to boost this program back up to where Bob left it. Do you agree?

I would agree we all want UC to be sucessful. But many feel Mick is not capable of being a good coach and will only extend the mediocrity here. That is where the "negativity" comes from.

[DMoney_70]

I would agree we all want UC to be sucessful. But many feel Mick is not capable of being a good coach and will only extend the mediocrity here. That is where the "negativity" comes from.

Those that feel that way may ultimately be right but 3 years with a beginning roster of 1 backup player and 1 kid that shouldn't have been in D1 plus 2 lost years (at least) in recruiting is not enough time to be sure.

There has been improvement, albeit not as fast as it probably should have been thanks to going into a season with only 1 true PG and him getting hurt but there was improvement. The injuries were bad luck. The lack of a backup PG was Mick's mistake.

None of us will accept any steps back and most of us will likely require NCAA tournament bid this year as continued improvement. With that said, it's too early to say a guy is not capable of getting this program back. It's fair as an opinion, though.

[RobPoppeil]

None of us will accept any steps back and most of us will likely require NCAA tournament bid this year as continued improvement. With that said, it's too early to say a guy is not capable of getting this program back. It's fair as an opinion, though.

In all fairness, most said the same thing last year except NIT instead of NCAA. And that didn't happen. And there is evidence that Mick is not up to par.

[LongTimer]

Those that feel that way may ultimately be right but 3 years with a beginning roster of 1 backup player and 1 kid that shouldn't have been in D1 plus 2 lost years (at least) in recruiting is not enough time to be sure.

There has been improvement, albeit not as fast as it probably should have been thanks to going into a season with only 1 true PG and him getting hurt but there was improvement. The injuries were bad luck. The lack of a backup PG was Mick's mistake.

None of us will accept any steps back and most of us will likely require NCAA tournament bid this year as continued improvement. With that said, it's too early to say a guy is not capable of getting this program back. It's fair as an opinion, though.

DMoney, I'm not trying to start something, but what you just stated is very much what causes arguments to start. There is a wide variety of opinions on what Mick started with. You just stated once again that he started with nothing. The other side will want to debate that statement immediately because of the things that have been argued about forever in here. I won't bring them all up again. But, if you make a statement like that, which can be countered easily, then here we go again with the bickering. If you don't want us to argue and fight, then don't make statements that aren't necessarily true. That particular issue has caused hundreds of arguments in here and I will not get it started again. But, if I keep hearing it over and over, then I will be compelled to argue the other side once again. Peace!

[DMoney_70]

I didn't say he started with nothing. I started with the facts that are undisputed. He had 2 sub par players on his roster and the university had not recruited for 2 years. That's all I said. That part is FACT.

My OPINION is that it is not enough to judge him yet however I completely understand some that think 3 years IS enough time to judge because I'm just as tired of UC not being on the national stage.

I don't see how that would cause any issues.

[Bearcat Jeff]

Absolutely agree. Let's also not assume that because people use a little sarcasm or humor along the way, that they have some sort of hidden agenda. Here is my official agenda for anyone that cares to know.

1.) Get Bearcat Basketball back to being an annual Top 20 program.

2.) Improve the image of the program.

3.) Bring the fans back so we have a great winning atmosphere at the Shoe, that can inspire our players to victory, and impress recruits who visit and see it.

4.) Cherish the accomplishments of our past teams (and coach), and strive to see us return to that same success and even surpass it in the future.

5.) Respect each other in here and stop the personal attacks! Understand that there may be a lot we disagree on, but we are united in one thing....that we are all Bearcat fans and we all want a great winning program, with a polished image, that we can all be proud of.

You have my vote!

[Bearcat John 69]

I'm gonna throw this in for everyone because this seems like a good thread to put it in.

* Everyone's idea of negativity or level of positive outlook is relative to their own viewpoint. Some people who are accused of being negative really are not being so all the time.

* It's very hard to convey tone in an internet post. Sometimes when someone posts something that looks like they are being elitist that person may not realize it sounds that way.

* It's very hard to convey sarcasm in an internet post even when you throw in some emoticons indicating you're kidding or joking around.

I think everyone probably runs into one or more of these issues every now and then, some more than others. So, take some extra time to really read people's posts rather than automatically assuming you have an always negative or positive poster on your hands and let's see if we can bring things back to a more civil discourse.

very well put lobot.
also great thread started by you d-money. i've let myself become swallowed up by negativity regarding uc hoops, so it was nice to read this post.

[Best Body]

I would agree we all want UC to be sucessful. But many feel Mick is not capable of being a good coach and will only extend the mediocrity here. That is where the "negativity" comes from.


This is exactly correct, in my opinion, but I can understand how those who disagree are tired of reading it.

I think the question of whether Mick is the right guy is obviously the major issue regarding the program, so I can see how every thread ends up in that debate, seeing that the recruiting of high level or lowly regarded players, the improvement of current players, etc., all are directly related to Mick's performance. Perhaps we should just have a "Is Mick the right coach for UC?" thread (or entire section, even), and ban all comments pro and con to that thread. That way those that are tired of the argument, regardless of their stance on it, can discuss other topics, without rereading the same arguments, in every thread. Those that wish to further debate the issue intelligently, can simply go there to do that, or to vent, truly consider the opposing position, take immature shots at each other, whatever.

Pot shots at, or defense of Huggins are no longer relevant, so I don't understand the point of doing that, other than in the "where are they now section". If it ever becomes a valid argument whether Mick is as good as Huggins was, I think all on here will be at least somewhat satisfied.

[Bearcat Jeff]

DMoney, I'm not trying to start something, but what you just stated is very much what causes arguments to start. There is a wide variety of opinions on what Mick started with. You just stated once again that he started with nothing. The other side will want to debate that statement immediately because of the things that have been argued about forever in here. I won't bring them all up again. But, if you make a statement like that, which can be countered easily, then here we go again with the bickering. If you don't want us to argue and fight, then don't make statements that aren't necessarily true. That particular issue has caused hundreds of arguments in here and I will not get it started again. But, if I keep hearing it over and over, then I will be compelled to argue the other side once again. Peace! None of us will be saying anything if we can't be objective about things. I don't think anybody has any problems with dispute. It's the manner it's carried out. If everybody on here stopped taking everything personal the tone would be a a debate level instead of an argument. Bob Huggins and Mick Cronin are basketball coaches for the university I love. They are not my best friends or family. Opinion is all we have here. Just keep it civil.

[Bearcat Jeff]

This is exactly correct, in my opinion, but I can understand how those who disagree are tired of reading it.

I think the question of whether Mick is the right guy is obviously the major issue regarding the program, so I can see how every thread ends up in that debate, seeing that the recruiting of high level or lowly regarded players, the improvement of current players, etc., all are directly related to Mick's performance. Perhaps we should just have a "Is Mick the right coach for UC?" thread (or entire section, even), and ban all comments pro and con to that thread. That way those that are tired of the argument, regardless of their stance on it, can discuss other topics, without rereading the same arguments, in every thread. Those that wish to further debate the issue intelligently, can simply go there to do that, or to vent, truly consider the opposing position, take immature shots at each other, whatever.

Pot shots at, or defense of Huggins are no longer relevant, so I don't understand the point of doing that, other than in the "where are they now section". If it ever becomes a valid argument whether Mick is as good as Huggins was, I think all on here will be at least somewhat satisfied. There should never be a comparison. Depending on criteria the best two coaches in U.C. history are Jucker and Huggins. Why do we even debate the whole Mick/Huggins thing. That is where the fights come in. Acknowledging that doesn't mean you have to disrespect the other. Support both.

[LongTimer]

I didn't say he started with nothing. I started with the facts that are undisputed. He had 2 sub par players on his roster and the university had not recruited for 2 years. That's all I said. That part is FACT.

My OPINION is that it is not enough to judge him yet however I completely understand some that think 3 years IS enough time to judge because I'm just as tired of UC not being on the national stage.

I don't see how that would cause any issues.

Ok, I didn't want to do it, but here is the fact. The day he signed to coach the University of Cincinnati, Devan Downey was on our roster. He was still on our roster the 2nd and 3rd day. He was still officially on our roster when he changed his mind about transferring and asked Mick if he could come back. Once he transferred to S. Carolina, he was off our roster. Actually, what I just posted is the fact. There are other points to be made about how depleted the roster and the overall program were at the time. Suffice it to say, we have argued this over and over ad nauseum.

Last year, Mick started with something very good. After defeating a top 20 RPI team late in the season, we were almost a lock to make the NCAA. That is a pretty good start and cancels out the old argument of what he started with 3 and a half years ago. All we had to do was beat some crappy teams down the stretch and we were in. A similar thing happened the previous year. The further we get away from the day we hired him, that argument holds less and less credibility anyway.

I'm confident he will improve this season.

[DMoney_70]

There should never be a comparison. Depending on criteria the best two coaches in U.C. history are Jucker and Huggins. Why do we even debate the whole Mick/Huggins thing. That is where the fights come in. Acknowledging that doesn't mean you have to disrespect the other. Support both.

Great point. Coming from a guy that's hoping the best for Mick and the program and having been viewed, I'd guess, as a Mick supporter, he doesn't belong in the conversation with Huggins. I owe my love for UC to Bob Huggins. If I stop and consider what happened 4 years ago, it still hurts.

I'm just hoping that Mick can take the time he worked with Bob and Rick and turn himself into a great coach. He's not a great coach now but he's still new to this.

[DMoney_70]

I don't see anything wrong with you bringing that up again LT. Devan certainly would have changed the starting position for Mick. Still, 2 lost years of recruiting and the quality of the other 2 players still left the situation far worse off than you are willing to admit. Even if I give you Devan Downey, where was the rest of the roster going to come from? It would still have been that pack of leftover JUCOs and that's a tough place to start.

This is a worthy debate as long as we stay civil.

[LongTimer]

I don't see anything wrong with you bringing that up again LT. Devan certainly would have changed the starting position for Mick. Still, 2 lost years of recruiting and the quality of the other 2 players still left the situation far worse off than you are willing to admit. Even if I give you Devan Downey, where was the rest of the roster going to come from? It would still have been that pack of leftover JUCOs and that's a tough place to start.

This is a worthy debate as long as we stay civil.

Agreed, and he had the ineligibility issue with two of his best recruits. If you start year one with Downey at the point, Hernol Hall at center, Adam H at forward and the other 3-star players filling in, and Conner Barwin adding some quality bench minutes, I think he makes the NIT in year one and NCAA in years two and three. Just my opinion.

[DMoney_70]

Agreed, and he had the ineligibility issue with two of his best recruits. If you start year one with Downey at the point, Hernol Hall at center, Adam H at forward and the other 3-star players filling in, and Conner Barwin adding some quality bench minutes, I think he makes the NIT in year one and NCAA in years two and three. Just my opinion.

But Hall and Adam H would have been to his credit. You can't count them because the argument is what he had when he took the job. I'll give you Downey. I have no reason to dispute your story about him wanting to come back. That's still a pretty bare situation. It was so bare that he had to take chances on Hall and Adam H and got burned on both of them. The rest of the roster was not very good.

He didn't have the luxury of convincing a few incoming recruits to stick it out because there weren't any incoming recruits. That's my point, though I don't expect you to agree. We can move on but it was worth a mini debate.

[BtotheU]

Between this "let's all be friends" and the_ones constant threat to take his toys and go home, I offer you all this:

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya

Let's go Mick!!! Great job Bob!!!

[DMoney_70]

Between this "let's all be friends" and the_ones constant threat to take his toys and go home, I offer you all this:

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya

Let's go Mick!!! Great job Bob!!!

LOVE IT.

All we are sayyyyyyyyying. Is give peace a chance.....

[LongTimer]

LOVE IT.

All we are sayyyyyyyyying. Is give peace a chance.....

My argument has always been that he didn't have to build the program itself. The tradition, name recognition, brand, apparel sales, everything was well established and developed. The roster was slim, but it did have that one great player to build around. Other coaches take over programs with crappy rosters, plus the program is unknown, no tradition, no national TV, etc. Mick at least didn't have to explain who the Cincinnati Bearcats were. He also had an amazing conference to recruit to, unlike the previous coach, so in many respects, his job wasn't as tough as some would say.....just find some good players and keep the tradition going. It hasn't quite worked out that way to date.

[qsilvr2531]

My argument has always been that he didn't have to build the program itself. The tradition, name recognition, brand, apparel sales, everything was well established and developed. The roster was slim, but it did have that one great player to build around. Other coaches take over programs with crappy rosters, plus the program is unknown, no tradition, no national TV, etc. Mick at least didn't have to explain who the Cincinnati Bearcats were. He also had an amazing conference to recruit to, unlike the previous coach, so in many respects, his job wasn't as tough as some would say.....just find some good players and keep the tradition going. It hasn't quite worked out that way to date.

If finding good players was that easy, I don't think basketball coaches would get paid as much as they do.

[DMoney_70]

My argument has always been that he didn't have to build the program itself. The tradition, name recognition, brand, apparel sales, everything was well established and developed. The roster was slim, but it did have that one great player to build around. Other coaches take over programs with crappy rosters, plus the program is unknown, no tradition, no national TV, etc. Mick at least didn't have to explain who the Cincinnati Bearcats were. He also had an amazing conference to recruit to, unlike the previous coach, so in many respects, his job wasn't as tough as some would say.....just find some good players and keep the tradition going. It hasn't quite worked out that way to date.

I asked a good friend what he thought because he's a lifelong UK fan but grew up with me in the Cincinnati area and remembers the Bearcats well going back to Yates. An outsider's opinion of sorts.

He made a very interesting point that I'd like you to consider. He's not trying to prove me right, it was his honest opinion. He doesn't think there was much tradition left at all once Yates was done and that any tradition that was built under Huggins WAS inseparable from him and so it left with him. Cincinnati without him was just another program. What do you guys think? Especially you, LT.

His conclusion is that Mick should get a 3 year pass but that the honeymoon is definitely over and needs to get them in the tournament this year.

[Lobot]

NO Singing!!!! It's in the rules somewhere I just haven't found it yet.

[DMoney_70]

NO Singing!!!! It's in the rules somewhere I just haven't found it yet.

We are desperate for some news, aren't we? :)

[bearcatbbllfn]

[DMoney_70 His conclusion is that Mick should get a 3 year pass but that the honeymoon is definitely over and needs to get them in the tournament this year.]

He should get a minimum 3 yrs under any circumstance and his was a bit more difficult than average coming in for sure. At the same time, I want to see a winner in the coach. I do not want to be having this discussion after 1/2 a decade and no tournament glory. We have to get back as soon as possible. 18 yr old kids will know us for what weve done over the last 4 years they were in high school. What they see or dont on the media coverage. I have pulled for Mick because he runs this team. If Mick wins, the bearcats win. Can you for a root a team to win, but at the same time root against the coach? Seems like there would be a conflict in having both opinions. If you dont support the coach, you cant possibly want him to win right? Mick has to prove himself and it is a short rope. This program was too prominent not to be aggressive. We cannot loose too much time. I want Mick to win but he has to get it done now. I like him but I am panicked. I dont think we have the time. Its now or else we have to aggressively go after a great coach. No hard feelings, its a business.

[DMoney_70]

[DMoney_70 His conclusion is that Mick should get a 3 year pass but that the honeymoon is definitely over and needs to get them in the tournament this year.]

He should get a minimum 3 yrs under any circumstance and his was a bit more difficult than average coming in for sure. At the same time, I want to see a winner in the coach. I do not want to be having this discussion after 1/2 a decade and no tournament glory. We have to get back as soon as possible. 18 yr old kids will know us for what weve done over the last 4 years they were in high school. What they see or dont on the media coverage. I have pulled for Mick because he runs this team. If Mick wins, the bearcats win. Can you for a root a team to win, but at the same time root against the coach? Seems like there would be a conflict in having both opinions. If you dont support the coach, you cant possibly want him to win right? Mick has to prove himself and it is a short rope. This program was too prominent not to be aggressive. We cannot loose too much time. I want Mick to win but he has to get it done now. I like him but I am panicked. I dont think we have the time. Its now or else we have to aggressively go after a great coach. No hard feelings, its a business.

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure what "great" coach would want this job. I don't think the "tradition" is what others thinks it is. Not yet.

Hopefully Mick turns it around and we don't have to worry about finding a "great" coach. I want Mick to become a great coach and to do it here.

[Doss]

I was in England and went to where Winston Churchill was buried. I asked some folks were Neville Chamberlain was buried. The reply from all was "I don't know and no one cares"

When we talk about great UC coaches we must talk of the great 3.

1. George Smith really got things rolling with Twyman, Dierking, Mendenhall, Davis and a guy named Robertson.

2. Jucker won 2 NC's and blew one NC

3. Huggins returned UC to 14 WONDERFUL years of Dancing.

I hope, in my heart that Cronin will be the fourth great coach, my head and eyes tell me otherwise.

LOVE IT.

All we are sayyyyyyyyying. Is give peace a chance.....

[joe]

Absolutely agree. Let's also not assume that because people use a little sarcasm or humor along the way, that they have some sort of hidden agenda. Here is my official agenda for anyone that cares to know.

1.) Get Bearcat Basketball back to being an annual Top 20 program.

2.) Improve the image of the program.

3.) Bring the fans back so we have a great winning atmosphere at the Shoe, that can inspire our players to victory, and impress recruits who visit and see it.

4.) Cherish the accomplishments of our past teams (and coach), and strive to see us return to that same success and even surpass it in the future.

5.) Respect each other in here and stop the personal attacks! Understand that there may be a lot we disagree on, but we are united in one thing....that we are all Bearcat fans and we all want a great winning program, with a polished image, that we can all be proud of.

I can do that LT. I just have a problem with a certain person saying silly things like "we get Riek and we're going to win the National Championship." It's stuff like that, the part that makes me respond to him is because I think he is so whatever that he believed it. I literally wanted them to get Riek so when UC didn't win it all, like they wouldn't have, I can then tell him to pound salt. That's pretty bad IMO.

And the only other thing I have a problem with is it seems every pro Mick guy has to clarify a win with how great a coach he is or when he gets a recruit - -how great of a recruiter he is...lol, but when he loses or the team falls apart at the end it is reason after reason after reason etc. etc. etc. That is my problem, because you can't have it both ways....yet many in here do and if you even sniff the name of Huggins here they all come.

I can love Bob and everything he did for this school and still like Mick. Do I love MC like I did BH? No. But I hope too!! I didn't just fall in love of Huggs, even after the final four and elite eight years, it took years of consistently winning and seeing that it didn't matter if he lost four starters that he was still going to win. But even when I would say that in here the rebuttal is "well it's because he was in CUSA." Ah balogney, he's doing it at W.Va. in the BEast now. I'd never bring up Bob in here if people would stop bashing him and then drop to their knees in front of Mick, and you know who you are. It's as simple as that. Good thread BTW.

gregg

[joe]

Of course. And we're all Americans, also. The expressions of the fans is an issue of degree. My memory is weak, but Bob promised us an NC. I appreciate what he did, but he did not deliver. Mick said something similar to "When they ask what is the best basketball program in the country, I want the answer to be Cincinnati." Sorry, please feel free to correct my quotation. Being the best will take more than one NC. I would be satisfied with back-to-back NCs. If we only win one, some will say it was a fluke. Two back to back will be enough for me.

For sure, the nay-sayers want NCs also. Some are just trolls, but some of nay-sayers believe we are not on the right track. The jury is still out, we may not be on the right track, but we will be on this track with this coach for a few more years.

We can't jump straight to the NC from here. We have to get back into the NCAA tournament, then win a Big East Championship, before Mick or his successor can recruit enough 5 star guys to take us there.

But see Carl, that is where I say if Bob would have had the opportunity to recruit in the BEast he would have, and I believe that. I believe that he will win at least one National Championship at W.Va.(if he doesn't die from another heart attack first) and I will be soooo freeking happy for him but then again, pissed because it didn't happen here.

This is what I wish, and I have said it here before. Give Coach Cronin a 10 yr. extension, if he doesn't consistently win in that time, then there is absolutely NOTHING that can be said - ziltch. That is how bad I want him to do well here...but also to give him more than enough time so when/if he doesn't produce then it will show that the admin./BOT (and many will be long gone by then) hired the wrong person and there can be no excuses whatsoever. I am tired of excuses.

gregg

[joe]

DMoney, I'm not trying to start something, but what you just stated is very much what causes arguments to start. There is a wide variety of opinions on what Mick started with. You just stated once again that he started with nothing. The other side will want to debate that statement immediately because of the things that have been argued about forever in here. I won't bring them all up again. But, if you make a statement like that, which can be countered easily, then here we go again with the bickering. If you don't want us to argue and fight, then don't make statements that aren't necessarily true. That particular issue has caused hundreds of arguments in here and I will not get it started again. But, if I keep hearing it over and over, then I will be compelled to argue the other side once again. Peace!

EXACTLY LT, because that is exactly what I was getting ready to do, but because I read your post I chose not to. NO EXCUSES anymore.

gregg

[catsfan32]

But see Carl, that is where I say if Bob would have had the opportunity to recruit in the BEast he would have, and I believe that. I believe that he will win at least one National Championship at W.Va.(if he doesn't die from another heart attack first) and I will be soooo freeking happy for him but then again, pissed because it didn't happen here.

This is what I wish, and I have said it here before. Give Coach Cronin a 10 yr. extension, if he doesn't consistently win in that time, then there is absolutely NOTHING that can be said - ziltch. That is how bad I want him to do well here...but also to give him more than enough time so when/if he doesn't produce then it will show that the admin./BOT (and many will be long gone by then) hired the wrong person and there can be no excuses whatsoever. I am tired of excuses.

gregg

I would put 100-1 odds on him winning a national championship at WVU. I think Huggs will go down as the coach who was great but couldnt win it all. And this simply comes down to recruiting and his life span. I thin WVU is good for about an elite 8 and at best a final 4 while Huggs is there. I love Huggs but i just dont think he can make it long enough to see the fruition of his work. It's sad but when more than half of your heart doesnt work its not a good sign of longevitity.

[bearcatbbllfn]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure what "great" coach would want this job. I don't think the "tradition" is what others thinks it is. Not yet.

Hopefully Mick turns it around and we don't have to worry about finding a "great" coach. I want Mick to become a great coach and to do it here.

It would be awesome for a Cincy guy and grad to win here. I would love to see that. That is what got me on board with him to begin with. However, this cannot be a 6-7 year failure. UC cannot let the program fall that far behind. I think highly of our program and see it as a very good gig. The big east, fat paycheck, isnt this the kind of job coaches push for? UC better come off the cash if thats what it takes to get the right man (if )Cronin cant get results. Its all about results. I am feeling good about the next season. I think he has enough to produce results and will. I will not make excuses for him or give him a free pass though if he does not. Faith and hope does not generate revenue or national stature.

[joe]

I didn't say he started with nothing. I started with the facts that are undisputed. He had 2 sub par players on his roster and the university had not recruited for 2 years. That's all I said. That part is FACT.

My OPINION is that it is not enough to judge him yet however I completely understand some that think 3 years IS enough time to judge because I'm just as tired of UC not being on the national stage.

I don't see how that would cause any issues.

25 characters etc. etc. I decided to get rid of the original post because you wouldn't have like it. Wasn't that nice of me?

gregg

[catsfan32]

And my rebuttal is if certain people didn't have PERSONAL VENDETTAS and acted with some professionalism none of this would have ever happened and we would be talking about if we were going to be ranked in the top 10/15 and the great recruits that were already inked. Like that school that has our former coach. This is how it happens everytime.<shaking my head>

gregg

Its not comparable in situations and that is all that needs to be said!

[joe]

Ok, I didn't want to do it, but here is the fact. The day he signed to coach the University of Cincinnati, Devan Downey was on our roster. He was still on our roster the 2nd and 3rd day. He was still officially on our roster when he changed his mind about transferring and asked Mick if he could come back. Once he transferred to S. Carolina, he was off our roster. Actually, what I just posted is the fact. There are other points to be made about how depleted the roster and the overall program were at the time. Suffice it to say, we have argued this over and over ad nauseum.

Last year, Mick started with something very good. After defeating a top 20 RPI team late in the season, we were almost a lock to make the NCAA. That is a pretty good start and cancels out the old argument of what he started with 3 and a half years ago. All we had to do was beat some crappy teams down the stretch and we were in. A similar thing happened the previous year. The further we get away from the day we hired him, that argument holds less and less credibility anyway.

I'm confident he will improve this season.

Great post LT, I am glad you said it instead of me.

gregg

[Bearcat_DF]

I don't see anything wrong with you bringing that up again LT. Devan certainly would have changed the starting position for Mick. Still, 2 lost years of recruiting and the quality of the other 2 players still left the situation far worse off than you are willing to admit. Even if I give you Devan Downey, where was the rest of the roster going to come from? It would still have been that pack of leftover JUCOs and that's a tough place to start.

This is a worthy debate as long as we stay civil.

DMoney,

I do not dispute that Mick inherited a bad situation. I like LT, disagree with the facts. LT has already mentioned DD. In another thread, I pointed out that we didn't lose 2 seasons of recruiting. DD and Cedric McGowan came in the year prior to AK coaching. We did lose some recruits when everything went down and that happens in almost all coaching changes.

We did lose a full year when we had an interim coach. The biggest problem was that we were losing a ton of senior players and need a huge class. So, the lost recruiting year was exasperated by the high turnover. Still, Mick did a remarkable job of filling the roster and he picked up Vaughn in that recruiting class (don't want to miss the pretty good gem in that recruiting class). It should also be said that at least Vaughn, Warren, and Williamson had been recruited by UC by the previous coaching staff too.

I think there were two huge obstacles in getting a coach. The fiasco of the coaching change. Given how that played out in the public, who in their right mind wanted to walk into that situation. I think it is fair to say that it was not handled professionally. Also, we were not offering a large salary. Mick is making about $750, I would guess in the middle of the BE range. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but UC's overall AD budget is $20m below the top tier programs. So, we didn't have the money to attract a coach - compare UC's salary to AZ's.

Finally, I think the move the BE has had positives and negatives. At first, I thought it would be a benefit (it certainly has been on the FB side); but the more I have thought about it (given everything that has transpired) I think it has made UC recruiting more difficult. In C-USA for the longest time, we were the only big fish in the bond. In the BE, we are just one of the pack with some really big fish ruling the pond.

[joe]

Between this "let's all be friends" and the_ones constant threat to take his toys and go home, I offer you all this:

Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya, my Lord, kumbaya
O Lord, kumbaya

Let's go Mick!!! Great job Bob!!!

No, you can't even say that because one poster <ahem> ok maybe more than him doesn't even believe "O Lord" existed, so sadly that shot that down also. ;-)

gregg

[joe]

I asked a good friend what he thought because he's a lifelong UK fan but grew up with me in the Cincinnati area and remembers the Bearcats well going back to Yates. An outsider's opinion of sorts.

He made a very interesting point that I'd like you to consider. He's not trying to prove me right, it was his honest opinion. He doesn't think there was much tradition left at all once Yates was done and that any tradition that was built under Huggins WAS inseparable from him and so it left with him. Cincinnati without him was just another program. What do you guys think? Especially you, LT.

His conclusion is that Mick should get a 3 year pass but that the honeymoon is definitely over and needs to get them in the tournament this year.

This is going to sound like I am being condescending, so I will say right away, that I am not. But just about everything you said, except mine was three people that are UK fans (none I would consider friends BTW just acquaintances.) They basically said everything opposite of what your friend said. So what does that tell you? Nothing really. Just saying. I say give him a six yr. pass or whatever, actually I am tired of hearing this "he should get a pass etc. etc.".....so I say give him 10 more yrs. then surely there can be no reasons given.

gregg

[joe]

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure what "great" coach would want this job. I don't think the "tradition" is what others thinks it is. Not yet.

Hopefully Mick turns it around and we don't have to worry about finding a "great" coach. I want Mick to become a great coach and to do it here.

I see you're trying DMoney, you're really trying...lol...but you always respond to a post like this one with a rebuttal. Just saying. At least you're trying, try harder. ;-)

gregg

[joe]

I see you're trying DMoney, you're really trying...lol...but you always respond to a post like this one with a rebuttal. Just saying. At least you're trying, try harder. ;-)

gregg

I'll add DMoney, I didn't mean you were responding to my post, just the post you were responding to before me. Did I clear that up?:confused:

gregg

[joe]

I would put 100-1 odds on him winning a national championship at WVU. I think Huggs will go down as the coach who was great but couldnt win it all. And this simply comes down to recruiting and his life span. I thin WVU is good for about an elite 8 and at best a final 4 while Huggs is there. I love Huggs but i just dont think he can make it long enough to see the fruition of his work. It's sad but when more than half of your heart doesnt work its not a good sign of longevitity.


Sadly Catsfan I agree with you on the heart thing, I just pray he will be fine. As for "the coach who was great etc.".....totally see where you are coming from and that wouldn't be a bad thing either. I just firmly believe that he has learned a lot throughout his years at UC and he has already shown he isn't as stubborn as he once was, with his switching of defenses throughout his small number of games at W.Va. Just his switching to a zone defense (a TRUE zone defense) won them five games that I remember in two short years.

If he would have done that I believe UC would have beaten Temple the one year and Mississippi St. the other in the tourney. He didn't like switching to zone he said because a certain person (whoever) couldn't be held "accountable"....and we all know when there was a break down on defense he wanted someone to be accountable so he could pull him.

He is running different sets on offense, I can see changes on both sides of the ball that he never did or rarely even tried at UC. **THAT** is what I feel is going to push him over the top, it seems he is recruiting more pure shooters than just athletes and trying to turn them into shooters. Once you get to the Elite Eight anything can happen, IMO that should be every teams goal.....at least get to there....shots start falling and kids start tasting it. Once he gets there I believe it will be the combo of real offensive firepower COMBINED with shutdown defense that is going to do it for him. Maybe a UC vs. W.Va. National Championship in the future huh? I'd love it.

gregg

[joe]

Its not comparable in situations and that is all that needs to be said!


You must have got to it before I got rid of it. Sorry about that.

gregg

[Lobot]

I was in England and went to where Winston Churchill was buried. I asked some folks were Neville Chamberlain was buried. The reply from all was "I don't know and no one cares"

When we talk about great UC coaches we must talk of the great 3.

1. George Smith really got things rolling with Twyman, Dierking, Mendenhall, Davis and a guy named Robertson.

2. Jucker won 2 NC's and blew one NC

3. Huggins returned UC to 14 WONDERFUL years of Dancing.

I hope, in my heart that Cronin will be the fourth great coach, my head and eyes tell me otherwise.

At the risk of the thread, care to tell us why?

[Lobot]

DMoney,

I do not dispute that Mick inherited a bad situation. I like LT, disagree with the facts. LT has already mentioned DD. In another thread, I pointed out that we didn't lose 2 seasons of recruiting. DD and Cedric McGowan came in the year prior to AK coaching. We did lose some recruits when everything went down and that happens in almost all coaching changes.

We did lose a full year when we had an interim coach. The biggest problem was that we were losing a ton of senior players and need a huge class. So, the lost recruiting year was exasperated by the high turnover. Still, Mick did a remarkable job of filling the roster and he picked up Vaughn in that recruiting class (don't want to miss the pretty good gem in that recruiting class). It should also be said that at least Vaughn, Warren, and Williamson had been recruited by UC by the previous coaching staff too.

I think there were two huge obstacles in getting a coach. The fiasco of the coaching change. Given how that played out in the public, who in their right mind wanted to walk into that situation. I think it is fair to say that it was not handled professionally. Also, we were not offering a large salary. Mick is making about $750, I would guess in the middle of the BE range. I'm not sure of the exact figure, but UC's overall AD budget is $20m below the top tier programs. So, we didn't have the money to attract a coach - compare UC's salary to AZ's.

Finally, I think the move the BE has had positives and negatives. At first, I thought it would be a benefit (it certainly has been on the FB side); but the more I have thought about it (given everything that has transpired) I think it has made UC recruiting more difficult. In C-USA for the longest time, we were the only big fish in the bond. In the BE, we are just one of the pack with some really big fish ruling the pond.

Good stuff but last time I checked Mick is making a $Mill.

[Bcat007]

This is going to sound like I am being condescending, so I will say right away, that I am not. But just about everything you said, except mine was three people that are UK fans (none I would consider friends BTW just acquaintances.) They basically said everything opposite of what your friend said. So what does that tell you? Nothing really. Just saying. I say give him a six yr. pass or whatever, actually I am tired of hearing this "he should get a pass etc. etc.".....so I say give him 10 more yrs. then surely there can be no reasons given.

gregg

Anybody who is 40 plus may not have 10 years to wait. Wayman Tisdale (god rest his soul) just passed at the young age of 44. Great player, even better person.

[Carin's Dad]

I was in England and went to where Winston Churchill was buried. I asked some folks were Neville Chamberlain was buried. The reply from all was "I don't know and no one cares"

When we talk about great UC coaches we must talk of the great 3.

1. George Smith really got things rolling with Twyman, Dierking, Mendenhall, Davis and a guy named Robertson.

2. Jucker won 2 NC's and blew one NC

3. Huggins returned UC to 14 WONDERFUL years of Dancing.

I hope, in my heart that Cronin will be the fourth great coach, my head and eyes tell me otherwise.Actually, Socko Wiethe got it started before George.

[Doss]

Socko did a good job.

Actually, Socko Wiethe got it started before George.

[Bearcat Jeff]

I was basing the two on NC's won and most games won.

[LongTimer]

I asked a good friend what he thought because he's a lifelong UK fan but grew up with me in the Cincinnati area and remembers the Bearcats well going back to Yates. An outsider's opinion of sorts.

He made a very interesting point that I'd like you to consider. He's not trying to prove me right, it was his honest opinion. He doesn't think there was much tradition left at all once Yates was done and that any tradition that was built under Huggins WAS inseparable from him and so it left with him. Cincinnati without him was just another program. What do you guys think? Especially you, LT.

His conclusion is that Mick should get a 3 year pass but that the honeymoon is definitely over and needs to get them in the tournament this year.

Well. it's obvious that our tradition did in fact leave with Huggs. It's not because it was inseparable from Huggs. It's because Mick hasn't pressed the right buttons yet to snatch that tradition back. After three years, I don't have much confidence that he will ever get it back. This year should be his best and quite possibly his last chance to do it.

[Bearcat Jeff]

LT I agree that this year is cruxstone for Cronin. There has to be mounting pressure to go to the next level.

[ME80]

Anybody who is 40 plus may not have 10 years to wait.

Way to make me feel better!

[DMoney_70]

This is going to sound like I am being condescending, so I will say right away, that I am not. But just about everything you said, except mine was three people that are UK fans (none I would consider friends BTW just acquaintances.) They basically said everything opposite of what your friend said. So what does that tell you? Nothing really. Just saying. I say give him a six yr. pass or whatever, actually I am tired of hearing this "he should get a pass etc. etc.".....so I say give him 10 more yrs. then surely there can be no reasons given.

gregg

I have 2 very good friends and UK fans. One I noted. They are knowledgeable, college educated guys that don't feel the need to rip on UC so they will give me their honest opinions. They wouldn't accept what Billy G. did there in 2 years but they both are honest enough to admit what Mick came into. They BOTH think he deserved some patience for a few years and that this year something needs to happen.

[DMoney_70]

LT I agree that this year is cruxstone for Cronin. There has to be mounting pressure to go to the next level.

And I agree with this. I expected some post season last year and didn't get it. Mick has run out of excuses and although I have been patient and supportive, he needs to make some huge strides this season.

[Bearcat Jeff]

LT I agree that this year is cruxstone for Cronin. There has to be mounting pressure to go to the next level.The wording here is a good example of why you should never type on little sleep with a hang over.

[Bearcat_DF]

Good stuff but last time I checked Mick is making a $Mill.


Bill Koch says otherwise in an article this past April:
"As for salaries, there is a huge disparity between the $1.2 million that Kelly is guaranteed every year, the $700,000 that men’s basketball coach Mick Cronin is guaranteed, and what coaches from the so-called Olympic sports receive, but Thomas says UC must pay market value to the coaches of its revenue-producing sports, whose success is crucial to funding the other sports."

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090422/SPT0101/304220057/1064/Sides+agree+UC+cuts+painful

The salary we are able to pay is a limiter. UC is really at a disadvantage with other programs when you look at the size of AD budgets.

OSU & Texas - $90mil
Tennessee/LSU - $60mil
UConn/UL - $45mil
UC - $30mil

These are of the top of my head - you can google the figures - they are reported at Indystar.

[bearcatbbllfn]

Bill Koch says otherwise in an article this past April:
"As for salaries, there is a huge disparity between the $1.2 million that Kelly is guaranteed every year, the $700,000 that men’s basketball coach Mick Cronin is guaranteed, and what coaches from the so-called Olympic sports receive, but Thomas says UC must pay market value to the coaches of its revenue-producing sports, whose success is crucial to funding the other sports."

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090422/SPT0101/304220057/1064/Sides+agree+UC+cuts+painful

The salary we are able to pay is a limiter. UC is really at a disadvantage with other programs when you look at the size of AD budgets.

OSU & Texas - $90mil
Tennessee/LSU - $60mil
UConn/UL - $45mil
UC - $30mil

These are of the top of my head - you can google the figures - they are reported at Indystar.


It is another long term invesment and not just filling a job position. A new 19k arena and a big salary coach that can fill it up. If we want to be big time, do it right and dont play around. If we can get there under the current model, great. It all looks real unsure at this point. I would look at where we want to be and what we need to do to get there and make the investment. For ex; getting a guy like Calipari and building the new facility would work IMO. I know there is funding issues and what not but find a way. We are in the best conference ever, it wont fail.

[jplog]

3. Huggins returned UC to 14 WONDERFUL years of Dancing.




Yea, and most of them were two minute waltz's.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Yea, and most of them were two minute waltz's.

Except for 1992, 1993, 1996, and 2001.

UC has ONE other Sweet 16 between 1964 and 2009.

That's 24 ZERO MINUTE WALTZES.

[jplog]

Except for 1992, 1993, 1996, and 2001.

UC has ONE other Sweet 16 between 1964 and 2009.

That's 24 ZERO MINUTE WALTZES.

Still, if were the big time program that everybody is mourning, then four times in fourteen years isn't much. In fact, alot of real big time coaches lose their jobs for such things.

[LongTimer]

Still, if were the big time program that everybody is mourning, then four times in fourteen years isn't much. In fact, alot of real big time coaches lose their jobs for such things.

Care to name a few? If there are a lot, naming a few should be easy.

[joe]

Anybody who is 40 plus may not have 10 years to wait. Wayman Tisdale (god rest his soul) just passed at the young age of 44. Great player, even better person.

You have a point, I'm one year younger. I didn't know he had health problems, that's too bad.

gregg

[joe]

Yea, and most of them were two minute waltz's.

See, comments like this. Then what would you call MC length of waltz?<rolling my eyes>

gregg

[Pie Hole]

See, comments like this. Then what would you call MC length of waltz?<rolling my eyes>

gregg

I wouldn't call Mick's dance a waltz. It's really more like the Makarena. It was popular for about 6 months and then it just lost it's luster.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Still, if were the big time program that everybody is mourning, then four times in fourteen years isn't much. In fact, alot of real big time coaches lose their jobs for such things.

UC had 20 W in NCAA games between 1992 and 2005.

UC has 20 W in NCAA games in the ENTIRE rest of its basketball history.

If you were disappointed lately, imagine getting just 2 W in NCAA games from 1964 through 1989.

Just 2 W, not a typo.

[jplog]

Care to name a few? If there are a lot, naming a few should be easy.

Tubby Smith, John Brady, even John Cooper from the football side.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Tubby Smith, John Brady, even John Cooper from the football side.

Tubby Smith???

He won NCAA title, went to 4 Elite 8 and 6 Sweet 16 in 10 years.

UK averages 1 NC, 4 E8, and 6 S16 every 10 years (NCAA from 1939 thru 2009).

He averaged 72% in NCAA games (UK averages 69% all-time).

I call BS on putting him on such a list.

[jplog]

Well, he didn't leave because of all the love and respect the UK community was showing him. He wasn't living up to UK standards even though he was blowing away Huggins numbers and he left before he was asked to leave.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Well, he didn't leave because of all the love and respect the UK community was showing him. He wasn't living up to UK standards even though he was blowing away Huggins numbers and he left before he was asked to leave.

BS on that.

UK standard (all-time) is 76% W-L record. Tubby was 76% also.

UK standard (all-time) is 69% in NCAA games. Tubby was 72% in those.

UK averages 1 NC, 5 SEC, and 5 SECT titles (all-time) every 10 years.

Tubby won 1 NC, 5 SEC, and 5 SECT titles in 10 years at UK.

But Tubby is black. Now THERE is where he didn't meet UK "standards" at all.

[jplog]

BS on that.

But Tubby is black. Now THERE is where he didn't meet UK "standards" at all.

BS on that. That's like Jerry Hairston saying Dusty Baker is booed by Cubs fans because he's black and not because he ruined the arms of Kerry Wood and Mark Prior. Tubby won an NC with Pitino's players and UK wanted more than that.

[westsidecat]

BS on that.

UK standard (all-time) is 76% W-L record. Tubby was 76% also.

UK standard (all-time) is 69% in NCAA games. Tubby was 72% in those.

UK averages 1 NC, 5 SEC, and 5 SECT titles (all-time) every 10 years.

Tubby won 1 NC, 5 SEC, and 5 SECT titles in 10 years at UK.

But Tubby is black. Now THERE is where he didn't meet UK "standards" at all.

UK fans are morons. Don't judge a program by their fans. The fans made him unhappy and that is why HE left the program, and the fact that the powers that be didn't want him to bring his son in as a coach.

That is why Tubby left.

[Pie Hole]

I think 2 of your 3 posts have requested that the thread be closed. If you don't like what people have to say then you should just skip them. It's hard to believe that you've been a member for only a week and already you're barking orders for threads to be closed. The moderators are well aware of what is being said and will close things up when they see fit.

You may get your wish after this post however.