Kilpatrick vs. Vaughn

[Best Body]

Reading the article on this site about Kilpatrick's performance against Vaughn and the X player makes me wonder how significantly Vaughn's role will be reduced on this year's team, particularly if the LS/BR guy is eligible, and as good as advertised, and assuming Wright is healthy and regains the quickness we were told he has. The write-up didn't go as far as saying that Kilpatrick out-played Vaughn, but given the statistics they referenced, and the game wasn't an anomoly, it leads one to wonder how many minutes he will get at the 2 & 3 spots, if he is a superior "pure athlete" than DV. I wouldn't expect Vaughn to lose his starting position, but his minutes will almost certainly be reduced, given the greater depth this year, and if Stephenson is a better 2 guard than Vaughn, then what should Mick do? Should he play Stephenson out of position to allow Vaughn to stay on the floor, even though that means Stephenson is undersized at the 3? What if Kilpatrick or someone else looks like he could be a stud at the 3?

If anyone went to the game would care to shed light on how the head-to-head matchup between Vaughn and Kilpatrick looked, it'd be interesting to hear your version of how it went.

[xlax1306]

Reading the article on this site about Kilpatrick's performance against Vaughn and the X player makes me wonder how significantly Vaughn's role will be reduced on this year's team, particularly if the LS/BR guy is eligible, and as good as advertised, and assuming Wright is healthy and regains the quickness we were told he has. The write-up didn't go as far as saying that Kilpatrick out-played Vaughn, but given the statistics they referenced, and the game wasn't an anomoly, it leads one to wonder how many minutes he will get at the 2 & 3 spots, if he is a superior "pure athlete" than DV. I wouldn't expect Vaughn to lose his starting position, but his minutes will almost certainly be reduced, given the greater depth this year, and if Stephenson is a better 2 guard than Vaughn, then what should Mick do? Should he play Stephenson out of position to allow Vaughn to stay on the floor, even though that means Stephenson is undersized at the 3? What if Kilpatrick or someone else looks like he could be a stud at the 3?

If anyone went to the game would care to shed light on how the head-to-head matchup between Vaughn and Kilpatrick looked, it'd be interesting to hear your version of how it went.

Deonta will play 30-35 mins/game. Freshman don't supplant your all BEAST senior. I don't care how good they are. Not to mention Stephenson is not undersized at the 3. You can't say stephenson is undersized for the 3 at 6-6 215-220 and then say Kilpatrick may be a stud there at 6-3 200. Lance is more of a slasher/scorer which fits the mold of the college 3 and Kilpatrick can flat shoot it which obviously fits the 2. There will be plenty of minutes to go around, but they're not going to be minutes that have been taken away from Deonta.

[bubbachunk]

Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league.

[BearcatAlum1]

DV will play approximately 30 minutes a game, as opposed to the 36 minutes a game he played last year. This is best for DV and the team. He must remain healthy and fresh for the end of the season.

Killa will provide some minutes off the bench, but don't expect him to overtake some of the more proven players. If Killa gets between 10-12 minutes, I'd be suprised. Let's not forget he is competing against BR, DV, Davis, Bishop and Dixon for minutes.

[GoCats1994]

This debate is getting tired....

Hypothetically speaking...how many minutes or points/game would Stephen Curry have averaged if he played for Memphis or North Carolina?

Would he still be good? Obviously.
Would he still average 34 minutes & 28 points/game? Doubt it.

When the talent level increases across the board...there is still only 1 ball and 200 minutes/game to go around.

[Helicopter]

Reading the article on this site about Kilpatrick's performance against Vaughn and the X player makes me wonder how significantly Vaughn's role will be reduced on this year's team, particularly if the LS/BR guy is eligible, and as good as advertised, and assuming Wright is healthy and regains the quickness we were told he has. The write-up didn't go as far as saying that Kilpatrick out-played Vaughn, but given the statistics they referenced, and the game wasn't an anomoly, it leads one to wonder how many minutes he will get at the 2 & 3 spots, if he is a superior "pure athlete" than DV. I wouldn't expect Vaughn to lose his starting position, but his minutes will almost certainly be reduced, given the greater depth this year, and if Stephenson is a better 2 guard than Vaughn, then what should Mick do? Should he play Stephenson out of position to allow Vaughn to stay on the floor, even though that means Stephenson is undersized at the 3? What if Kilpatrick or someone else looks like he could be a stud at the 3?

If anyone went to the game would care to shed light on how the head-to-head matchup between Vaughn and Kilpatrick looked, it'd be interesting to hear your version of how it went.

I implore you watch 1 interview with Mick Cronin since the LS signing. He has never waivered and has reiterated countless times WE ARE A 3 GUARD OFFENSE. LS/Vaughn/Cash will start, Cash will bring the ball down and all three will do significant ball handling. He has even mentioned putting Bishop / Lance / Wilks at the 4 and running a small 4 guard Nova offense.

In college bball you play to your strengths and ours is guard depth. Everyone's minutes will decrease with our new found depth and experience.

And stop with this Killa > DV nonsense. It's summer league (Alvin Mitchell anyone?) and DV had an ankle sprain 2 weeks earlier.

[Cincinnati Burrcats]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Vaugns minutes decreased, but not in a bad way. I think Vaughn will be more effective with the roster we have. If he can stay fresh throughout an entire game, he'll be far more efficient offensively... hopefully

[Bearcat Jeff]

If Vaughn plays 25-30 minutes a game it will mean this team is playing very well and as anticipated. Your initial line up in my opinion (if Lance is eligible) will be:

Cash
Vaughn
Stephenson
Gates
Toyloy

The only question to me is back up minutes. Dixon/Thomas (in December)/Bishop would be the first 3 I would think but who knows? I love this problem. If the frontline stays healthy, this team potentially can be really good. They have to play tough BEast D and that is my only concern.

[Cincinnati Burrcats]

To me, Bishop should not be playing unless half the team fouls out. Talk about a guy who drives me up a wall. How can anyone be this far in his basketball career and not know how to dribble a basketball or make a bounce pass? It's beyond me. Dixon should be getting his minutes do to effort and efficiency. Davis, if he could get his act together on defense could play more. Its nice to have plenty of options for once though!

[Best Body]

Deonta will play 30-35 mins/game. Freshman don't supplant your all BEAST senior. I don't care how good they are. Not to mention Stephenson is not undersized at the 3. You can't say stephenson is undersized for the 3 at 6-6 215-220 and then say Kilpatrick may be a stud there at 6-3 200. Lance is more of a slasher/scorer which fits the mold of the college 3 and Kilpatrick can flat shoot it which obviously fits the 2. There will be plenty of minutes to go around, but they're not going to be minutes that have been taken away from Deonta.

I thought Stephenson was 6-4 & Kilpatrick taller than that (I was thinking 6-5) - I must've recalled incorrectly.

As to a Freshman supplanting an All BEAST senior, if Stephenson is as good as some think (I've heard him described as good as the 3rd best player in his class), he COULD, theoretically be better than Vaughn. If he is better than Vaughn, shouldn't he get the minutes ahead of him?

I didn't intend to say that I think Kilpatrick is likely to start, or that he is > Vaughn, as I've not seen him play. I was asking for input from someone who did see it in person. If he schooled Vaughn, it would make for interesting conversation. If he turns out to be big-time, he'll take minutes, is all. Adding in Cash and LS, Vaughn's role may be very much less than last year.

If Cash and Stephenson turn out to be the best players at 1 & 2, Vaughn's minutes may need to decrease. It was pointed out that Mick says that they will be a 3 guard offense. That will work if your two non-guards are able to defend the interior, and the team doesn't get absolutely killed on the boards. If Gates and Toyloy can't handle the load, Mick will be forced to play a bigger player with them (Wilks or someone). Hopefully Stephenson is physical enough to handle that, if that is the case.

[BearcatAlum1]

Larry Davis will have a bigger impact than most think.

[Cats for Life]

Vaughn is our most important player. He will play 35 minutes a game. He is the leader of the team. Like the other guy said said this is summer league.

[Best Body]

Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league.

Yes, but its also still basketball. Ten foot rims, same ball, same size court, same rules (somewhat). Players try to score, and I'm sure some try to play D.

[Corporateballa]

He destroyed Vaughn - it was somewhat uncomfortable to watch. Bigger, stronger, faster. Vaughn will start and be the leading scorer, but Killa killed him last Saturday in a summer league game. He has better basketball skills than anyone from last year's roster.

[Kindog202]

Stephenson is a legit 6'6. Stephenson is a wing player with an ability and the body to rebound down low. He has the ball handling skills of a guard. He is your prototypical small forward. Kilpatrick is smaller than Stephenson and is more of a shooting guard than a small forward. I think you will see a starting lineup of Cash, Vaughn, Lance, Gates and Toyloy. Depending on how much they want to run, you could remove Toyloy and put Wilks in or Dixon/Davis/Kilpatrick.

[Kindog202]

He destroyed Vaughn - it was somewhat uncomfortable to watch. Bigger, stronger, faster. Vaughn will start and be the leading scorer, but Killa killed him last Saturday in a summer league game. He has better basketball skills than anyone from last year's roster.

I wasn't able to make it to last Saturday's game but I have seen him play in about 3-4 other games this year and that does not surprise me at all.

[Not Guilty]

Larry Davis will have a bigger impact than most think.

Very much agree...

[Bearcat POE]

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if Vaugns minutes decreased, but not in a bad way. I think Vaughn will be more effective with the roster we have. If he can stay fresh throughout an entire game, he'll be far more efficient offensively... hopefully

I agree that his minutes should go down from last year. My thought on it is to preserve him and not have him, nor anyone else, die out at the end of the year. It is a great problem to have so much depth this year. If DV minutes are down its not going to be because someone is better than him

[Bearcat Jeff]

Larry Davis will have a bigger impact than most think.

I love LD and as many on here know I have said he will be a better player than people expect. I think we got a glimpse of that pre-injury last season. The people who play defense well will get minutes. The team is too deep, especially on the perimeter to allow people who aren't playing hard to be on the floor.

[HeThun]

Sadly, you are all wrong.

Alex Eppensteiner will share equally the 2 guard spot with Lance. DV will be relegated to the end of the bench, his services no longer needed. I feel for the man, but, it is what it is.

Seriously, after last season, I'm not sure Mick is a 100% backer of Vaughn. If that is so, then the door is open for someone to step in front of Vaughn. Rag on me if you want, but that is what I heard.

:cool:

[Bearcat POE]

Sadly, you are all wrong.

Alex Eppensteiner will share equally the 2 guard spot with Lance. DV will be relegated to the end of the bench, his services no longer needed. I feel for the man, but, it is what it is.

Seriously, after last season, I'm not sure Mick is a 100% backer of Vaughn. If that is so, then the door is open for someone to step in front of Vaughn. Rag on me if you want, but that is what I heard.

:cool:

my friend, no one is stepping in front of him, it has been said coach wants Cash DV and Lance starting, so I dont know what you are talking about

[nachoman91]

Yes, but its also still basketball. Ten foot rims, same ball, same size court, same rules (somewhat). Players try to score, and I'm sure some try to play D.

DeAndre Coleman, Alvin Mitchel, Rod Flowers .... all guys who tore up the summer league and everyone on every lessage board got all giddy saying they would but the next great stud for UC.

[Joe_Pong]

DeAndre Coleman, Alvin Mitchel, Rod Flowers .... all guys who tore up the summer league and everyone on every lessage board got all giddy saying they would but the next great stud for UC.

The only player I have ever said that about after watching summer league games was Aaron McGhee. Then Huggs never played him and ran him off, and he became an All-American for Oklahoma.

[BearcatJoe]

This could be one of the more ridiculous premises for a thread I have seen on here. No way does an All Big East Senior lose playing time to freshman. DV's minutes may go down slightly, but it will have nothing to do with Kilpatrick taking those minutes.

[Bearcat82]

This is DV's team, his senior leadership and desire to win will be very apparent when they are playing BEast basketball

[Globe Trotting Cat Fan]

I have not posted much recently, due to travel and work...and traveling for work...but from where I sit, there are lots of good perspectives on the matter.

The reality is, the guys who practice the hardest and play the hardest get the most time on the court.

Also, very little can surpass senior leadership which DV will be able to provide.

Mick knows who he wants to be in the starting line up, but as he has said on MANY an occasion, its the guys who are on the court at the end of the game. And if the game is tight, and foul trouble is not an issue, I see very few circumstances in which DV is NOT in the game at the end.

Killa is very very good from the looks of it, and members of the staff have told me that I would be very impressed by his overall game. So far, I would agree he is impressive.

Will he start OVER DV though? Probably not, unless the team needs something along the lines of a shake up. But if we play to the potential of the individuals and the team as a whole, I don't see that happening either.

Why don't people just sit back and enjoy what DV brings to the table, in his last year in a uni, and let everything else work itself out in its own time?

I know that last part won't happen, but just a thought. ;)

[misterfresh]

Lets remember, this is the same summer league that Chris Mack won the MVP of not all that long ago. Mack definitely has game and could shoot the lights out but no one plays a lick of defense unless there is the opportunity for a break-away jam. Everyone just runs down the court and jacks it up.

So, while its encouraging that Kilpatrick has been good there, the league in no way emulates the rigors of playing D-1 basketball and certainly not those of the Big East.

[GoCats1994]

Vaughn is our most important player. He will play 35 minutes a game. He is the leader of the team. Like the other guy said said this is summer league.

Let's break this down...

Vaughn is our most important player - I agree
He will play 35 minutes a game - no way, no how, not a chance will he average 35/game
He is the leader of the team - I agree
Like the other guy said said this is summer league - I agree

Depth alone will allow DV to get a rest. Mick did not have that luxury last year. Plus, I would anticipate (hopefully) that UC will actually be far enough ahead against some of the cupcakes that DV can get a longer rest.

Will DV play 35 in some games? Probably
Will DV avgerage 35? Don't see it happening. Even Logan averaged (slightly) less than 35 his Sr season, and he was the only real ball handler on the team.

[Best Body]

DeAndre Coleman, Alvin Mitchel, Rod Flowers .... all guys who tore up the summer league and everyone on every lessage board got all giddy saying they would but the next great stud for UC.

Does this mean that none of the good or great players for UC have ever actually looked good in Summer League in their freshman year?

By the way, for all of those panicking at the suggestion that another player may rival Vaughn at his position (I wonder about the correlation between these posters and those who freak out when someone doubts Mick), and possibly steal some minutes: It would be a good thing for the program. We know exactly what type of player Vaughn is, and if Kilpatrick is physically capable of trouncing him on any basketball court, at any time, it shows potential that he could turn out to be a steal for UC (I pooed on the signing, based on his ratings, so I'd still be at least somewhat surprised). Sure one summer league game doesn't prove anything, but I think it's exciting, and worthy of a thread, not a "ridiculous premise", blah blah.

I think Vaughn is an excellent shooter and a very good overall player. He'll obviously not be relegated to the end of the bench, or anything. But, if LS is eligible, HE may be the #1 scoring option, and perhaps maybe Mick will want a more athletic guard playing alongside him, at times, for better defense. Or maybe he'll mesh better with LS, or defer more to him. What if the Cats are struggling to rebound, and Kilpatrick shows he's better at rebounding from the guard position. I think Vaughn's minutes will be down to around 28-29 this year.

[juckerrules]

Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league.

Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly
Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly
Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly
Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly Exactly
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[Cats for Life]

Summer league is fun to watch. I go to almost every one but it is street ball with no coaching. D. Downey looked like he did not belong on the court when he was there. Alvin Mitchell looked like a stud last year. Jordan Crawford looks like Michael Jordan this year. All is not what it seems.

My point is these guys are working out and going through weight training all the time and sometimes before games. I heard from a source that Mick was surprised that Yancy could even walk after some of his workouts much less compete in the summer league after a good session with Andrews.

Vaughn has proven that he is a good player for the Cats. He is our senior leader and the leader of this team. He is going to get the most minutes on the team. I too and excited about Kilpatrick and Dixon but there time to shine will come in the next few years. For now I will be happy with some solid contributions from the both of them off the bench this year.

[Corporateballa]

DeAndre Coleman, Alvin Mitchel, Rod Flowers .... all guys who tore up the summer league and everyone on every lessage board got all giddy saying they would but the next great stud for UC.

Not one of those guys "tore up summer league"...not in Cincinnati. Flowers didn't look like a D1 player. I was shocked by Mitchell's lack of athleticism.

[Josh Rexhausen]

Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league. Its summer league.

What exactly are you saying? Oh, the first 17 times didn't make sense but it does now.

[Corporateballa]

I think the score was something like 99-93? Any UC fan who was there can't help but be excited about the future of our program! I'd like to offer one man's observations:

Deonta Vaughn - Didn't score like he can, and had an off night from three...but looks super explosive. This guy looks more and more like a pro. Is showing a cross-over move that I didn't see last year. Is blowing by guys and getting to the rim at will and finishing consistently. Very active on defense...this guy is poised for a HUGE year.

Mike Williams - The first time that I ever saw him play hard. BEASTLY! He might have had double digit offensive rebounds. Best hands in the program since Danny Fortson...he squeezes EVERYTHING!!! Unguardable turn-a-round J with a high release point. Now I can see what Mick is talking about.

Dion Dixon - I'm ready to make a couple of declarations about this kid. He is the best player in this recruiting class. He is distinctively better than Alvin Mitchell. He will start at some point this year. You could argue that he was the most impressive/complete basketball player on the floor. I was most impressed by his defense. He was the only player that effectively guarded BJ Raymond (BJ - might have had 40). This kids has the rare combination of elite athleticism, and advanced basketball skillz. His shooting stroke is pure/lights out! Cat quick - he was blowing by defenders at will and finishing strong...he had as many dunks (four) as threes. He is an excellent rebounder. Extremely quick off the ground. Flat out more athletic than last years recruits.

Cashmere Wright - He's going to be a great point guard. Has all of the tangibles - speed, can shoot it, elite athleticism, can finish at the rim...will he be good enough this year to start and lead from day one???? That remains to be seen.

Yancy Gates - He is a pro. He had like 6 or 7 dunks. Rebounded really well. His offensive post game is really raw. He is very skilled, so I have no doubt that he will develop his post options. He struggled some to score against Kenny Freese. No signs of the "laziness" label.

Alvin Mitchell - Looks to be in great shape. Very strong physically, but limited athletically. He can score in bunches, and worked very hard on D, but had no answer for Dixon. At one stretch in the second half, Dion was alternately blowing by him and crossing him over and then draining threes and shaking his head at Alvin as to say "you can't guard me".

Kenny Freese - Very skilled, very big. Didn't play nearly enough. He really bothered Yancy at times. Light years ahead of McClain right now.

BJ Raymond - this guy will be one of the best shooters in the nation. Very tough match-up. Too big for guards, and a tough match-up for bigs on the perimeter.

Very entertaining contest. These guys competed very hard. The intensity level was sky high.

[coach]

i was at the game and basically vaughn is playing at about 75% on his ankle. that said, kilpatrick has the size advantage on him so he's a tough out for vaughn. i've been very impressed with sk, but his shot has not always been falling so everyone should temper their comparisons. vaughn has been "on" much more than "off" with little help. i think dv will welcome all the support he can get. here's to hoping dv gets an ncaa birth b/f he's gone. he's been a class act.

[bearcatbret]

And with all of the names, no one has mentioned Parker for competing for minutes. I think both Kilpatrick and Parker could be gems.

[levydl]

Not one of those guys "tore up summer league"...not in Cincinnati. Flowers didn't look like a D1 player. I was shocked by Mitchell's lack of athleticism.

Here's what you wrote about Mitchell on 7/16/07, the summer league prior to Mitchell's freshman year:

Gentry has not gained an ounce. Wilks has him beat however for least amount of muscle mass on the team. After watching Mitchell play like 5 times, all i can say is WOW! He will not be at UC for 4 years. He is strong, athletic, tremendous ball skills, and he is N-A-S-T-Y! Reminds me of Hick, Max, Logan, Keyon, etc. the way he competes. He just needs coaching and discipline. His skills and athleticism are elite. Huggins never had a player like him (not Herb Jones, I-Mac, Stokes...). Think Mel Levette with basketball skills.

Belton is HORRIBLE! He looks like a MAC player. Maybe he can develop over time. Williams will be ALL BE. A monster. Vaughn's body looks incredible. I look for him to have a monster year. The most impressive/most improved guy is Jamal Warren. Good luck keeping that guy off the floor. I don't look for any of the freshmen that I've seen other than Mitchell to make any impact (at least not the 1st half of the season).

Again, do not place any emphasis on summer league performance. Virtually everyone's gotten caught up on someone's great showing at Purcell/West Hight/Woodward in July. I thought Jon Carson was going to be Isaiah Thomas and Armein Kirkland was going to be Penny Hardaway after watching them in the summer league. It's just not indicative of how a guy will play in a real game.

[HeThun]

my friend, no one is stepping in front of him, it has been said coach wants Cash DV and Lance starting, so I dont know what you are talking about
Mick is not anxious to, nor motivated to play Vaughn at point unless forced to do so by circumstances beyond his control.

[Carin's Dad]

This is DV's team, his senior leadership and desire to win will be very apparent when they are playing BEast basketballI'll believe it when I see it. There have been reasons the last two years for Deonta to be the team leader but he has taken a pass each year. "Should be" and "will be" are not the same thing when it comes to leadership.

[joe]

I found it pretty odd in reading this. Just months ago {?} many were talking
about Vaughn being better than Steve Logan.:rolleyes:

Remember? He was going to #2 All-Time in Bearcat scoring and his jersey
was going to be on the wall.

Then later, I see a thread on Vaughn vs. Lance - if Kilpatrick is a better
overall player than Vaughn and Lance is a overall better player than Vaughn,
this team is going to have a great chance at a great Sweet Sixteen matchup,
and with all these great players, this team will be in the elite eight.

That should be every teams goal, get to the elite eight and then let your
stars do what they came to UC for.

gregg

[BearcatAlum1]

I found it pretty odd in reading this. Just months ago {?} many were talking
about Vaughn being better than Steve Logan.:rolleyes:

Remember? He was going to #2 All-Time in Bearcat scoring and his jersey
was going to be on the wall.
Then later, I see a thread on Vaughn vs. Lance - if Kilpatrick is a better
overall player than Vaughn and Lance is a overall better player than Vaughn,
this team is going to have a great chance at a great Sweet Sixteen matchup,
and with all these great players, this team will be in the elite eight.

That should be every teams goal, get to the elite eight and then let your
stars do what they came to UC for.

gregg

1. Vaughn will be the third leading scorer, maybe second. His offensive game is very good. His defense leaves much to be desired and IS the weakest part of his game. I think we'll see all of his numbers improve this year, and I strongly feel his defense will be much better.

2. As you stated, the talk of Killa v. BR v. DV is funny. DV is a two-time Big East performer and has "proven" he can play at the highest level in college basketball. The other freshman still need to prove it.

[LongTimer]

The fact that we will have far greater talent "around" Vaughn, will only serve to make him greater than he already has been. He has played three years as our only option. I'm sure his defense has suffered because he has played so many minutes and he has had to work so hard to get open. Anybody that discounts Vaughn is crazy. He will still be our "go to" player, but if teams want to continue to set their defense to stop Vaughn.....Lance, Killa, LD, Dixon, Yancy etc., will make them pay. This will finally be a legit true basketball team that will scare opponents. Once again, I think we will seriously compete for a BE Championship!