The Idea of Army/Navy Joining the BE [Archive]

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4mrUCat

11-11-2009, 08:34 PM

Happy Veterans Day to all those out there & thanks for all you've done.

I've been thinking about this for several weeks & figured today was the most appropriate day to post it.

I think the plusses would outway the minuses of Army & Navy joining the Big East for football.

What do you guys think? I would like to hear others thoughts before posting all of mine.

psax889906

11-11-2009, 08:42 PM

Navy would be a good addition to the football aspect... but what in the world does Army bring?

BasketBySteveLogan

11-11-2009, 08:56 PM

National attention on Veteran's Day and an easy vic

DimitriusChristedes

11-11-2009, 09:22 PM

you subject line is misleading.

Carthage World

11-11-2009, 09:45 PM

How about Navy and Notre Dame

Furry Bearcat

11-11-2009, 10:23 PM

Remember when we helped Army break their 19 game losing streak?! I know I do. I was at West Point for that game. That was the only time I've ever enjoyed a Bearcat loss!

STKohls

11-11-2009, 10:26 PM

I'm a big fan of both Army and Navy, and I respect their service but I don't think they bring much to the Big East. Tradition is important but for the conference, talent and competitiveness is more important.

I'd rather the Big East give Notre Dame the choice: join us for football, or your basketball, volleyball, soccer, and track teams can find a new conference. You're either part of the conference, or not.

BearcatRob33

11-11-2009, 10:43 PM

you subject line is misleading.

Agreed. These misleading headlines are getting tiresome. Mods, can you 'mod'ify the header?

MDW79

11-11-2009, 10:50 PM

binturong07

11-11-2009, 11:08 PM

Terrible idea. It doesnt benefit the Big East in any way.

psax889906

11-11-2009, 11:15 PM

Bearcat-in-Italy

11-11-2009, 11:48 PM

No No No No No.

RedRocker

11-12-2009, 12:15 AM

I'd rather the Big East give Notre Dame the choice: join us for football, or your basketball, volleyball, soccer, and track teams can find a new conference. You're either part of the conference, or not.

Agreed. Crap or get off the pot!

MDW79

11-12-2009, 12:44 AM

I think some of you are tossing aside Navy and the program they've established there over the past decade or so... good things are happening there... they would bring more to the conference right now than Syracuse... and over the past two seasons, Louisville...

No way. You can't base it off a couple of years. There's a reason Navy had lost to ND 44 years in a row. Syracuse has maybe the best tradition in our league, you could make a case for Pitt over them but regardless... Louisville has the talent and plenty of resources, they're just horribly coached, which will change. I don't see how anyone would think bringing in a service academy would help legitimize our conference, we're better off with 8 teams than diluting it with adding below average teams.

Lobot

11-12-2009, 01:29 AM

Sorry, checked in late tonight. What would you like the title of the thread to be?

RedRocker

11-12-2009, 02:28 AM

Sorry, checked in late tonight. What would you like the title of the thread to be?

How about "Army and Navy join the Big East?"

Jose_Jalapeno_on_a_Stick

11-12-2009, 05:37 AM

Sorry, checked in late tonight. What would you like the title of the thread to be?

It could be: "The Idea of Army/Navy Joining the BE".

For those familiar with my posts, it's no secret that misleading thread titles are a pet peeve of mine. However, in this case, I'm GLAD this was a misleading title, as I don't really care to have either team in the confrence :D

Nothing personal. I just don't think they add anything but tradition. Army and Navy may have been good a half century ago, but so were Holy Cross, and maybe some of the Ivy schools. Point is, tradition in itself does not equate to big time athletics.

Furthermore, I think the idea has been floated by them, as well, and THEY are not interested either. The proposal is DOA.

juckerrules

11-12-2009, 06:35 AM

My reaction when I saw the misleading subject line was: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

JDBEARCAT

11-12-2009, 06:45 AM

Bad idea. Both bring nothing to the big east but mediocre programs that would
dilute the league even further.
Make ND join or get out altogether.

Chips

11-12-2009, 07:23 AM

No way. You can't base it off a couple of years.

Many said the same about us a few short years ago.

Army is really stretching it - they're REALLY bad in both sports. Navy is closer (top 5-ish non-AQ football - more recent BBall success-David Robinson than Army-Coach K), and at least seams more feasible to me.

red_n_black_attack

11-12-2009, 07:46 AM

I have the utmost respect for these institutions but they would bring no benefit athletically to the conference, in fact I think they would only make the BE resemble something more like CUSA. I'll take Memphis and hopefully try to snag a team from the Big 11 or SEC. Either way ND needs to go and the bball side needs to split into 2 divisions.

Splitting B-Ball is a good idea. Motivation to get football in gear, but can you imagine a 16 team football league??? Yuck!

RE "snag a team from the Big 11 or SEC" Are you serious? Penn State is the only real viable option there, and that is a stretch. I think Memphis CAN be a good team, but let's see where their new coach takes them as right now Tenn takes all of the best talent from Memphis as the state school (sounding familiar yet...). I do not see any SEC schools leaving to join the Big East. The SEC schools have strong and long traditions in that conference and weak in FB most likely means stronger in BBall (i.e. Miss St or UK)

My ideal situation would be a 12 team BEast (in at least only football) that would include Notre Dame and maybe a MAC school, with a slim outside chance of enticing Penn State. The question is who goes? As newcomers to the league there is no way we can say so and so should leave. We haven't earned that right, but I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to expand FB. Easiest thing is adding ND, of course.

NO MILITARY ACADEMIES !!!!

bearcatbret

11-12-2009, 07:55 AM

djaphone

11-12-2009, 08:42 AM

Army is dreadful. If I remember correctly they joined C-USA for a couple of years and got absolutely demolished, they decided to pull out of the conference. If they can't compete in C-USA, what the **** would they bring to the Big East competition wise?

Montrell

11-12-2009, 09:12 AM

Navy and Army make no sense at all. Wont happen.

The two programs the Big East is targeting for football have not been mentioned on here yet. Both are currently in the ACC.

Montrell

11-12-2009, 09:14 AM

You need an odd number of football teams so that you have the same home and away conference games. Do not add two teams. Either one or three. VTech, Boston, Miami, Penn St would be the teams that I would target.

If you add 2 you can split into divisions and have a Championship game at the end of the season.

Play 8 conference games a year....

Each team plays everyone in their division and 4 of the 5 teams in the other division.

richard k.

11-12-2009, 09:21 AM

Navy and Army make no sense at all. Wont happen.

The two programs the Big East is targeting for football have not been mentioned on here yet. Both are currently in the ACC.

Hard to believe anybody south of Maryland would be interested - there is bad blood between some of the football schools and BC, even assuming BC wanted back in; why would Maryland leave a conference it has been a member of since Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, with all the attendant long term rivalries?

Bruce Monnin

11-12-2009, 09:26 AM

I have heard for awhile that both Boston College has some interest interest in returning to the Big East and that Maryland has some interest in joining them. How much interest, I have no idea.

bearcatbret

11-12-2009, 09:33 AM

But again, the basketball only schools will not allow the football teams to expand. There is currently equal number of votes between the fb and bb schools.

JerseySean

11-12-2009, 09:53 AM

Awful awful idea. They do nothing but bring our SOS down and the league reputation down. I can't believe you even suggested it...

Bearcat82

11-12-2009, 10:21 AM

Notre Dame would be a great addition....too bad they don't understand (likely are too greedy) that joining a conference, namely the "BEast" would be their salvation-- their "path" to a BCS Bowl every year ;)-- in fact, that may be the biggest hurdle for our football coach to overcome-- the fact that ND is not in a conference, it is our hope as UC fans would deter BK from leaving.

red_n_black_attack

11-12-2009, 11:20 AM

But again, the basketball only schools will not allow the football teams to expand. There is currently equal number of votes between the fb and bb schools.

Not true, is it? I cannot believe that ND has a full vote since they are only a partial member of the conference. That would mean there are 8 FB schools and 7+ BB schools. ND adding FB to Big East is the MOST appealing option. Conference gets the golden domers history and recruiting ability (and an academic boost) not to mention instant credibility. ND gets a road to the BCS, though it may just be a lesser road than they already have. Currently they only need 9 wins to get a BCS bid. 9 wins will not win the BEast and they may even have more losses play UC, WVU, and Pitt every year than they get playing Michigan, Mich St, and Purdue.

The only leverage we have is to threaten to remove other sports from competition if they don't join for FB.

Bcat007

11-12-2009, 11:29 AM

We sure have come a long way that we can now discuss throwing teams out of a conference we were lucky enough to be accepted into ourselves. The B.E. is still a basketball conference with some good football teams in it. UC arrived in the B.E. with a basketball program on life support. Football was on the rise but nowhere near where it is now. Brian Kelly was not here yet. The basketball team still has not completely recovered. Although we hope to change that this season. Other than basketball tradition and a football team that wasn't yet ready to contend with the upper half of the B.E. what did we offer? I am proud of the progress the school has made in both sports to this point, but it could change in a heartbeat should Brian Kelly decide to move on. That is a possibility that haunts this school each year. Sure Mike could find a replacement but what Brian has done in the small time he has been here is sick. Not many coaches out there who could match it. I like most would love to see football competition improved (not with Army and Navy). But as a fan i count my blessings as often as i can.

RedRocker

11-12-2009, 11:58 AM

First, the two service academies would rather be independent. That is one of the reasons why Army left C-USA. Frankly, I'd like to see the BE split with the FB schools going one direction and BB another.

I would target BC (since there has been some "noise" about rejoining), Maryland (??), Penn State (??), Memphis and give ND the ultimatum. Out of that mix, there should be at least 2 or 4 teams to add. Assuming ND retains the independent status:

Great American Conference

East West
Boston College Cincinnati
Syracuse Pittsburgh
Maryland Memphis
Connecticut Louisville
Penn State West Virginia
Rutgers South Florida

FB - play every team in division and 4 in other division - 9 conference games.
BB - same division twice, other division once - 16 conference games

Would be a great FB and BB conference. Just my 2 cents.

Bruce Monnin

11-12-2009, 12:09 PM

Except I would wager they would play the five teams in their division and three in the other division for 8 conference games (4 home and 4 away) and leave room for 4 non-conference games (3 home and 1 away - preferably)

Archcat

11-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Agreed. Crap or get off the pot!

I agree, I've felt this way for years about ND's holier than thou independent status in football. I'm guessing that when their current TV deal nears its completion, we will see ND suddenly wanting to be part of a conference.

qsilvr2531

11-12-2009, 01:24 PM

I agree, I've felt this way for years about ND's holier than thou independent status in football. I'm guessing that when their current TV deal nears its completion, we will see ND suddenly wanting to be part of a conference.

I'm guessing we'll suddenly see them sign another TV deal worth about as much as the Big East's entire TV deal when their TV deal nears its completion. ND isn't joining the conference anytime soon in football and the Big East isn't going to be forcing them to do anything.

The Big East might split with the religious schools breaking off from the rest at some point, but unless it does ND isn't going anywhere.

Bearcat John 69

11-12-2009, 01:49 PM

But again, the basketball only schools will not allow the football teams to expand. There is currently equal number of votes between the fb and bb schools.

the big east could change the bylaws to ensure the voting was always equal between bb and fb schools.

i have no desire to get rid of any of the established big east basketball only schools, but say you get rid of depaul and marquette. replace them with 2 fb schools. would love to poach a school from another bcs conference, but if not possible, go with memphis and central florida.

then u have 10 fb schools and 6 bb schools.
give each fb schools vote a value of 1.2, for a total of 12 points.
give each bb schools vote a value of 2.0, for a total of 12 points.

RedRocker

11-12-2009, 02:58 PM

RedRocker

11-12-2009, 03:00 PM

RedRocker

11-12-2009, 03:03 PM

I'm guessing we'll suddenly see them sign another TV deal worth about as much as the Big East's entire TV deal when their TV deal nears its completion. ND isn't joining the conference anytime soon in football and the Big East isn't going to be forcing them to do anything.

The Big East might split with the religious schools breaking off from the rest at some point, but unless it does ND isn't going anywhere.

Never say never. These networks are cutting costs wherever they can. This is why Jay Leno is on 5 nights a week for NBC. Cheaper o pay him than to produce another 5 hours of sitcoms or dramas.

aronius

11-12-2009, 03:13 PM

I would rather keep the league viable and small (as is) rather than adding place holder teams. Also, ND joining the Big East is fantasy. Never going to happen.

qsilvr2531

11-12-2009, 03:13 PM

Never say never. These networks are cutting costs wherever they can. This is why Jay Leno is on 5 nights a week for NBC. Cheaper o pay him than to produce another 5 hours of sitcoms or dramas.

Sure, but the same networks that are cutting costs pay for the Big East's TV deal. ND is playing on an entirely different planet than the Big East when it comes to TV money. A quick and easy path to a BCS bowl (which the BE doesn't really give them anyway) doesn't come close to making up for the difference in the TV deals.

richard k.

11-12-2009, 03:53 PM

I have heard for awhile that both Boston College has some interest interest in returning to the Big East and that Maryland has some interest in joining them. How much interest, I have no idea.

1. There was a law suit, or threat thereof, between some of the schools that were remaining in the BEast, and those that left for the ACC. There were a lot of hurt feelings - and I don't know if UConn and the others would be willing to let bygones be bygones and accept BC back into the fold.I don't even know if BC really does have an interest in coming back. It would make a great deal of sense from a geographic standpoint to have BC in the BEast and the ACC grab someone like Central Florida for its 12th school. I question whether the mere fact that it makes sense would be a significant factor.

2. I have seen in several places, claims that Maryland might have an interest in leaving the ACC and joining the BEast. On the other hand, I have never seen a factual argument as to why this would be true. No doubt Maryland Ath/Department people would not want to make such an interest public, but from a geographic, economic, or even academic standpoint, why would they want to change?

3. ND is never going to join the BEast in football. They are counted with the 7 other non-football catholic universities to make the 8 offsetting votes to the 8 football schools. Even if the basketball only and football schools were to split my money would be on ND staying with the catholic schools. (They could add 4 or so more and the all-holy conference would have some of the best basketball in the nation.)

4. As with UConn/BC there are still Penn St. people who were and are "pissed" about the way they think they were treated when Syracuse and a couple of the other BEast schools black balled their entrance to the BEast. This is another one that makes sense from a geographic standpoint, but my guess is that they are now too firmly entrenched in the Big 11 to even want to reconsider a move to the BEast.

What I would love to see is the 8 football schools go their own way, adding one of Penn St., BC, or Maryland. :D You'd still have great hoops, and solid football, with a 4/4 home and away conference schedule. The likelihood of that happening is about on a par with my mother growing wings and becoming a bird. :(

PS - adding the any of the service academies is a terrible idea - I love what the schools stand for - but one thing they don't currently stand for is excellence in high level intercollegiate athletics.

4mrUCat

11-13-2009, 10:06 AM

I thought I made it clear in my original post, but we are only talking about football. I'm sure Army & Navy would remain in the Patriot League for all other sports.

Plusses to adding Army and Navy:
+ Increases League size from 8 to 10. I think one of the reasons the Big East doesn't get the respect it deserves nationally is strictly a numbers issue. All other BCS conferences have at least 10 teams and since 8 < 10, they assume Big East < the other 5 BCS conferences. Many people, including pollsters don't look at data which may prove otherwise.

+ From a BCS National Championship perspective, it would be better to play Navy than SEMO.

+ Geographically it makes sense as Army & Navy are already within the BE footprint, and have some natural/close rivals.

+ The tradition & history of Army & Navy are still respected by some.

Minuses to adding Army and Navy to BE for football only:
- We might not be able to play Victory Bell rivalry w/Miami U every year home & home if we play all other 9 teams every year like the Pac 10.

- Sure I would rather have ND & BC, but that's probably not going to happen. Temple is better now, but I think the BE already tried them & kicked them out once. There is no way Penn State or Maryland would leave their current conferences.

JerseySean

11-13-2009, 12:54 PM

I would rather keep the league viable and small (as is) rather than adding place holder teams. Also, ND joining the Big East is fantasy. Never going to happen.

Then it's time to kick them out. Funny, I used to route for ND when I was growing up. The more I think about the special treatment they've received from the BEast, the more I absolutely abhor that institution.

aronius

11-13-2009, 01:01 PM

Then it's time to kick them out. Funny, I used to route for ND when I was growing up. The more I think about the special treatment they've received from the BEast, the more I absolutely abhor that institution.

I agree for the most part. However, Brian Bennett has stated before that the ND non football sports provide substantial revenue to the Big East. At least the Big East is getting something out of them.

richard k.

11-13-2009, 02:24 PM

I agree for the most part. However, Brian Bennett has stated before that the ND non football sports provide substantial revenue to the Big East. At least the Big East is getting something out of them.

Well, I'd like him to post the numbers. Aside from football the only sports that generate money are basketball, men's, where the BEast doesn't need any help from ND,and women's, where the amount of revenue they generate for the league has to be marginal at best. What other way(s) does the BEast get revenue from ND's presence? I'd be shocked if they got any significant money from the sale of anything "ND." So where do the revenue streams come from?