This is so frustrating!!!!

[vegasbearcat]

This is so frustrating. I just don't get it!!!!:mad:

http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/recruiting/classrankings?classyear=2010&classmonth=11&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fncb %2frecruiting%2fclassrankings%3fclassyear%3d2010%2 6classmonth%3d11

[JasonS]

Would you care to elaborate?

[vegasbearcat]

Sure. Calipari bolted for Ky. and took some of his recruits with him and others dropped Memphis as their choice or possible choice. That is obviously normal. Memphis replaces Calipari with a coach that is about 16 years old and they don't miss a beat with recruiting. And not just a good class either, they are now at the number 1 incoming class for next year.

[JasonS]

Sure. Calipari bolted for Ky. and took some of his recruits with him and others dropped Memphis as their choice or possible choice. That is obviously normal. Memphis replaces Calipari with a coach that is about 16 years old and they don't miss a beat with recruiting. And not just a good class either, they are now at the number 1 incoming class for next year.

Thanks. I wasn't completely sure where you are going with it. I am not too concerned and it will be interesting to see where the program is in a couple years. He was doing a lot of the recruiting for Cal and thus had a great relationship with a lot of the kids. If he doesn't win big in his first few years, forget about attracting top players. I think Memphis will come back to reality in a couple years.

[Bearcat Jeff]

Cincinnati signed 2 low post guys that will be very good players. I like the two signings. They are good players that will be here 4 years. I believe Yancey plays 1 more year so the rotation is going to be sweet.

[BearcatAlum1]

As BJ elaborated on another thread (I think...), two of the kids are from Memphis (5* and 4*), Will Barton went to Memphis b/c Pastner offered his brother a 'ship and Kendrick is from the deep south.

Not suprised Pastner is having this kind of success early. Let's see how well he sustains it. BTW, he team did not look very good against Kansas (in terms of discipline).

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Sure. Calipari bolted for Ky. and took some of his recruits with him and others dropped Memphis as their choice or possible choice. That is obviously normal. Memphis replaces Calipari with a coach that is about 16 years old and they don't miss a beat with recruiting. And not just a good class either, they are now at the number 1 incoming class for next year.

Pastner is hardly 16. He has great experience as Arizona and Memphis assistant. He is a SUPERB recruiter.

He may struggle taking over from a prominent coach like Cronin has BUT he was left with a strong roster (unlike Cronin in 2006).

[shaunsimpson]

Pastner did much of the recruiting for Calapari (yes, it is easy to recruit when you have him behind you), but he knows how to talk to kids and their parents. If you are a kid from the south it is very hard to get you out of the midwest. In my opinion you should be more upset with OSU getting the best of the midwest.

[LongTimer]

I think the point is this. Mick Cronin came in here with the reputation of being one of the best recruiters in the land. To date, we haven't seen anything that would knock our socks off. You can't really count Lance simply because all the big schools stopped recruiting him and he fell into our laps. I'll give Mick credit for staying with him and not giving up. I honestly expected to routinely see our names in the top 15 in recruiting. I remember Anthony Buford being interviewed the day Mick was hired and talking about Mick having a pipeline to all the great AAU and high school coaches and how there were many great players just waiting for Mick to get this job so that they could sign here. What happened? I mean, our recruiting has been ok, but it certainly doesn't appear like there is a "pipeline" to the greatest players in the country. He has recruited well, just not quite to the level I and many others expected.

[UC/XU fan]

Cincinnati signed 2 low post guys that will be very good players. I like the two signings. They are good players that will be here 4 years. I believe Yancey plays 1 more year so the rotation is going to be sweet.

Is Yancey going to quit playing basketball after his junior season? I still don't understand what people are seeing in Gates that would make you believe he's good enough to leave early and get drafted.

[bearcatbret]

Mick, until recently, did not have anything to sell top recruits except early playing time and playing in the BEast. As mentioned about Pastner recruiting for Cal, Mick has always recruited for Future HOF coaches. Hopefully this year UC will be competing in the top tier in the league and other good players will take note and sign.

[DMoney_70]

I think the point is this. Mick Cronin came in here with the reputation of being one of the best recruiters in the land. To date, we haven't seen anything that would knock our socks off. You can't really count Lance simply because all the big schools stopped recruiting him and he fell into our laps. I'll give Mick credit for staying with him and not giving up. I honestly expected to routinely see our names in the top 15 in recruiting. I remember Anthony Buford being interviewed the day Mick was hired and talking about Mick having a pipeline to all the great AAU and high school coaches and how there were many great players just waiting for Mick to get this job so that they could sign here. What happened? I mean, our recruiting has been ok, but it certainly doesn't appear like there is a "pipeline" to the greatest players in the country. He has recruited well, just not quite to the level I and many others expected.

I thought Decourcy debunked this already saying Lance was getting texts and calls while on campus visiting and even showed Mick who was calling and it was some big time coaches.

[ME80]

Is Yancey going to quit playing basketball after his junior season? I still don't understand what people are seeing in Gates that would make you believe he's good enough to leave early and get drafted.

Still doesn't matter what fans think, or whether we think he is ready or not. If someone tells him he can get drafted he will go.

[bearcatjim]

You can't really count Lance simply because all the big schools stopped recruiting him and he fell into our laps.

As Ocho Cinco would say, "Child Please". Yeah, no credit to Cronin for landing Lance. Give me a break. Other schools stopped recruiting him only once they realized they couldn't get him.

And as others have pointed out...as the program gets back to respectability, Mick's recruiting classes will keep getting better. Lance was a big get in that regard too.

[ZachAttack]

I think the point is this. Mick Cronin came in here with the reputation of being one of the best recruiters in the land. To date, we haven't seen anything that would knock our socks off. You can't really count Lance simply because all the big schools stopped recruiting him and he fell into our laps. I'll give Mick credit for staying with him and not giving up. I honestly expected to routinely see our names in the top 15 in recruiting. I remember Anthony Buford being interviewed the day Mick was hired and talking about Mick having a pipeline to all the great AAU and high school coaches and how there were many great players just waiting for Mick to get this job so that they could sign here. What happened? I mean, our recruiting has been ok, but it certainly doesn't appear like there is a "pipeline" to the greatest players in the country. He has recruited well, just not quite to the level I and many others expected.

Per Rivals, Mick's classes from '06 - '09 included 4 4*'s (J Henry [DNQ], McClain, Wilks, Wright) and 2 5*'s (Gates, Lance)

The Huggins/Kennedy classes of '02 - '05 included 6 4*'s, including 3 JUCOs and 1 non-qualifier (Bobbitt, K Johnson, Whaley, Bright, Downey, and T. Evans) and ZERO 5*'s.

Hmm, seems to me like recruiting has actually picked up despite the decreased win totals. I'd say Mick is doing alright recruiting.

[Not Guilty]

I think the point is this. Mick Cronin came in here with the reputation of being one of the best recruiters in the land. To date, we haven't seen anything that would knock our socks off. You can't really count Lance simply because all the big schools stopped recruiting him and he fell into our laps. I'll give Mick credit for staying with him and not giving up. I honestly expected to routinely see our names in the top 15 in recruiting. I remember Anthony Buford being interviewed the day Mick was hired and talking about Mick having a pipeline to all the great AAU and high school coaches and how there were many great players just waiting for Mick to get this job so that they could sign here. What happened? I mean, our recruiting has been ok, but it certainly doesn't appear like there is a "pipeline" to the greatest players in the country. He has recruited well, just not quite to the level I and many others expected.

Haven't you been going on and on about about how talented this team is? Were you just saying those things in order to build false expectations so if they aren't met you can tear the coach down? Why the change of heart?

Also, you are way off on Lance.

[LongTimer]

Haven't you been going on and on about about how talented this team is? Were you just saying those things in order to build false expectations so if they aren't met you can tear the coach down? Why the change of heart?

Also, you are way off on Lance.

I said...if you read my post...that Mick has recruited "well". When you recruit "well", that can lead to a talented team. When you recruit "great" or "amazing", that can lead to a highly ranked team. We obviously are not there yet. 99% of the media reports that I have heard on our recruiting of Lance have talked about the fact that everyone else backed off of him because they were afraid that he would be ineligible. I heard that again on the radio, just a day or two ago. If I am way off, then everyone else is way off and only you know differently. If Mike Decourcey says big time coaches were still recruiting him, then that is the 1st time I have heard that and I'll have to trust DMoney on that one. You are the one that is way off. I'm just saying what has been reported a thousand times...and please pay attention to what I said in my post the next time rather than continuing to carry on your juvenile grudge against me.

[LongTimer]

Per Rivals, Mick's classes from '06 - '09 included 4 4*'s (J Henry [DNQ], McClain, Wilks, Wright) and 2 5*'s (Gates, Lance)

The Huggins/Kennedy classes of '02 - '05 included 6 4*'s, including 3 JUCOs and 1 non-qualifier (Bobbitt, K Johnson, Whaley, Bright, Downey, and T. Evans) and ZERO 5*'s.

Hmm, seems to me like recruiting has actually picked up despite the decreased win totals. I'd say Mick is doing alright recruiting.

Let me put it this way....I'll take those inferior Huggs recuits above and you can take those "upgraded" Mick recruits, and I will blow you off the floor.

[ZachAttack]

Let me put it this way....I'll take those inferior Huggs recuits above and you can take those "upgraded" Mick recruits, and I will blow you off the floor.

Oh my mistake I thought we were talking about recruiting rankings.

[LongTimer]

Oh my mistake I thought we were talking about recruiting rankings.

Oh my mistake, I also thought we were talking about recruiting rankings and not comparing Mick to Huggs.

[ZachAttack]

Oh my mistake, I also thought we were talking about recruiting rankings and not comparing Mick to Huggs.

I'm not comparing Mick to Huggs. I'm just refuting your point that Mick hasn't recruited highly-rated classes by saying that, according to Rivals, he's landed more highly regarded 4* & 5* recruits in his first 4 classes than we saw at UC in the preceeding 4 classes.

I apologize if I happened to strike a raw nerve.

[LongTimer]

I'm not comparing Mick to Huggs. I'm just refuting your point that Mick hasn't recruited highly-rated classes by saying that, according to Rivals, he's landed more highly regarded 4* & 5* recruits in his first 4 classes than we saw at UC in the preceeding 4 classes.

I apologize if I happened to strike a raw nerve.

It has already been posted on here many times that Huggs did not recruit well in his last 3 or 4 years. So upgrading from poor recruiting does not prove that Mick has recruited highly rated classes. You're not refuting anything. I said in my post that Mick has recruited well. Has he knocked our socks off or had a top rated recruiting class...absolutely not. Did every single one of us think that when he was hired that we would start seeing top rated recruiting classes....absolutely! It hasn't happened and thus, we continue to climb the ladder fighting for respectability and trying to get back to both the Top 25 and postseason play. The length of time it has taken to climb out of the abyss proves that his recruiting has been ok, but it could be better.

[dp3113]

Still doesn't matter what fans think, or whether we think he is ready or not. If someone tells him he can get drafted he will go.

100% right. not to mention natural 6'9" 270 men who are fairly athletic don't grow on trees.

[DMoney_70]

LT

I found the story by DeCourcy. Here's the part I'm talking about:

Stephenson was the last 2009 McDonald's All American to choose a college. Tuesday, Stephenson committed to Cincinnati over a bunch of schools that leaked to various reporters they were no longer interested but, for some reason, still were endeavoring to contact him as recently as this weekend.
LINK TO THE STORY: http://www.sportingnews.com/college-basketball/article/2009-06-30/cronin-right-coach-keep-stephensons-attitude-check

In addition, Mick said Lance's phone was ringing like crazy and Lance would show him who was calling and it was some big time coaches that were supposedly no longer interested telling him not to commit to UC.

[DMoney_70]

And this from Mick:

Cincinnati coach Mick Cronin shrugged off concerns about schools backing away from Stephenson; some have said that his recruiting process dragged on for too long and there are concerns about his attitude.

"I disagree that anybody shied away from him," Cronin said. "I know for a fact that numerous, numerous schools on a daily basis were still recruiting him. He was on a visit here, and his phone was ringing every two minutes. He showed me the coaches who were calling."

LINK: http://blog.silive.com/hssportsextra/2009/07/lincoln_star_lance_stephenson.html

[ZachAttack]

It has already been posted on here many times that Huggs did not recruit well in his last 3 or 4 years. So upgrading from poor recruiting does not prove that Mick has recruited highly rated classes. You're not refuting anything. I said in my post that Mick has recruited well. Has he knocked our socks off or had a top rated recruiting class...absolutely not. Did every single one of us think that when he was hired that we would start seeing top rated recruiting classes....absolutely! It hasn't happened and thus, we continue to climb the ladder fighting for respectability and trying to get back to both the Top 25 and postseason play. The length of time it has taken to climb out of the abyss proves that his recruiting has been ok, but it could be better.

I suppose I agree that he COULD have done better. If you were criticizing him as a game coach, I think that would have a little more validity. I only chose the 4 year window of comparison because that's the length of time Mick has coached so far.

In my opinion, under the circumstances, he's recruited well when you consider that he has zero NCAA appearences to point to when recruiting kids and the fact that his recruiting compares favorably to the preceeding 4 years, when those coaches had the advantage of being able to sell the 15 straight NCAA appearance streak. Sure the BEast membership helps, but I'd say it's a great testament to MC's recruiting prowess that recruiting didn't fall off the map when on-court performance did.

[LongTimer]

I suppose I agree that he COULD have done better. If you were criticizing him as a game coach, I think that would have a little more validity. I only chose the 4 year window of comparison because that's the length of time Mick has coached so far.

In my opinion, under the circumstances, he's recruited well when you consider that he has zero NCAA appearences to point to when recruiting kids and the fact that his recruiting compares favorably to the preceeding 4 years, when those coaches had the advantage of being able to sell the 15 straight NCAA appearance streak. Sure the BEast membership helps, but I'd say it's a great testament to MC's recruiting prowess that recruiting didn't fall off the map when on-court performance did.

Mick Cronin came to us with the reputation of being one of the very best recruiters in the nation. As I said in a previous post, the day he was hired, Anthony Buford was on the radio being interviewed and talking about this "pipeline" to the best players in the country who were all waiting to sign if Mick got this job. Those were the exact words that came out of his mouth. He has proven to be a good recruiter, but I would argue that he has not yet proven to be a "great" recruiter. Anyone arguing that he has recruited great thus far, would be opening up a counter argument about the results achieved with the supposedly "great" recruits. I don't think anyone wants to go there. Suffice it to say, he has recruited well, as I stated above, but not quite as well as I expected when he was hired....and thus....we have not gotten back to the top tier of college baskeball quite as fast as I expected us to. I still like Mick. I support him. I want him to succeed here. Period!

[Not Guilty]

I said...if you read my post...that Mick has recruited "well". When you recruit "well", that can lead to a talented team. When you recruit "great" or "amazing", that can lead to a highly ranked team. We obviously are not there yet. 99% of the media reports that I have heard on our recruiting of Lance have talked about the fact that everyone else backed off of him because they were afraid that he would be ineligible. I heard that again on the radio, just a day or two ago. If I am way off, then everyone else is way off and only you know differently. If Mike Decourcey says big time coaches were still recruiting him, then that is the 1st time I have heard that and I'll have to trust DMoney on that one. You are the one that is way off. I'm just saying what has been reported a thousand times...and please pay attention to what I said in my post the next time rather than continuing to carry on your juvenile grudge against me.

How can you call me way off when you just admitted to being wrong. Decoursey did report that plenty of schools were coming after Lance hard, even when he was on campus in the summer visiting UC. You obviously don't know what you are talking about on this. Trying to take credit away from Mick is definitely something you would do though...

This is a former post of yours:

I'll go one step further and say...is there a Bearcat alive that doesn't believe (besides possibly Bearcatalum) that Huggs could have taken this roster and finished in the top one, two, or three of this conference? The answer is no. He never had a roster this deep and talented. But, he could sure motivate them to play hard and play some defense. Does anybody doubt that Biggie would have made his way into last night's game if Huggs were coach? Huggs would have had Biggie, the water boy, and 3 cheerleaders playing by half way thru the 1st half. He wouldn't have had some lame excuse that Biggie didn't play because of the matchups. As far as I could see, Gates, Toyloy, and a host of others couldn't matchup either, yet they were playing.

Anyway, we won and now we're off to Toledo. I'm still supporting Mick. We will compete for the BE Title with this team when they get their act together.

There is no way to misunderstand the bold. You are now belittling our talent. Before you were saying how incredible it was in order to discredit our coach. Why can't you stay consistent?

[LongTimer]

How can you call me way off when you just admitted to being wrong. Decoursey did report that plenty of schools were coming after Lance hard, even when he was on campus in the summer visiting UC. You obviously don't know what you are talking about on this. Trying to take credit away from Mick is definitely something you would do though...

This is a former post of yours:



There is no way to misunderstand the bold. You are now belittling our talent. Before you were saying how incredible it was in order to discredit our coach. Why can't you stay consistent?

Once again, 99% of the reports I have heard said that teams backed off of Lance. This one Mike Decourcey report does not necessarily prove all the others wrong. But, who the he!! cares? He hasn't recruited as good as we all expected. That is the fact. Not once have I belittled our talent. I said Mick has recruited well. I stand by my statement that this is the deepest and most talented roster that I have seen us have...even during the Huggs years. We may have had better talent at the top of our rosters through some of those years, but never have I seen so much talent throughout the whole roster right on down to the 13th or 14th player. There are absolutely no inconsistencies in what I say and how I have said it.....but good attempt in trying to find some. Keep trying though, I think I did have one inconsistency back in February of 2009, so you may need to did a little deeper.

[DMoney_70]

In LongTimer's defense, I do think there was a certain expectation of Mick bringing in big time recruits. I know that's what I expected.

Now, that said, I think he's recruiting as good as the former coach but hasn't found the knack yet for coaching them to a higher level than they were recruited.

I think we need to let the current Juniors complete their senior seasons before we make a final judgement but I think LongTimer is right that we were expecting a bit more. Not that he hasn't gotten some really talented kids but our expectations were for more 5 star surprises and that's probably just a naive mistake we all made.

[Not Guilty]

Once again, 99% of the reports I have heard said that teams backed off of Lance. This one Mike Decourcey report does not necessarily prove all the others wrong. But, who the he!! cares? He hasn't recruited as good as we all expected. That is the fact. Not once have I belittled our talent. I said Mick has recruited well. I stand by my statement that this is the deepest and most talented roster that I have seen us have...even during the Huggs years. We may have had better talent at the top of our rosters through some of those years, but never have I seen so much talent throughout the whole roster right on down to the 13th or 14th player. There are absolutely no inconsistencies in what I say and how I have said it.....but good attempt in trying to find some. Keep trying though, I think I did have one inconsistency back in February of 2009, so you may need to did a little deeper.

You can spin as much as you want, but it is very obvious what you are trying to do here. You are criticizing the recruiting efforts (without for a second even considering the situation he has recruited to) while at the same time calling this team more talented than any team Huggins had in an attempt to criticize the coach. Huggins had some incredibly talented teams. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth in an attempt to criticize the program, or Mick more specifically. It isn't a surprise. It is what you routinely do.

[ucat4]

LT, I usually agree w/ 90% of what you say. I think we are both on the same page, but I have to give MC huge kudos for landing Lance. Getting Lance was absolutely huge, and to honestly think that nobody else was interested is a little naive.

[Major ----de Coverley]

You can spin as much as you want, but it is very obvious what you are trying to do here. You are criticizing the recruiting efforts (without for a second even considering the situation he has recruited to) while at the same time calling this team more talented than any team Huggins had in an attempt to criticize the coach. Huggins had some incredibly talented teams. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth in an attempt to criticize the program, or Mick more specifically. It isn't a surprise. It is what you routinely do.


Touche, Your rapier wit has skewered him. I pray he does not respond with the usual 5 paragraph diatribe.

[LongTimer]

You can spin as much as you want, but it is very obvious what you are trying to do here. You are criticizing the recruiting efforts (without for a second even considering the situation he has recruited to) while at the same time calling this team more talented than any team Huggins had in an attempt to criticize the coach. Huggins had some incredibly talented teams. You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth in an attempt to criticize the program, or Mick more specifically. It isn't a surprise. It is what you routinely do.

lol.....you really have me figured out. Good job!

[LongTimer]

Touche, Your rapier wit has skewered him. I pray he does not respond with the usual 5 paragraph diatribe.

Another of the Longtimer fan club members checks in. There should be 2 or 3 more weighing in soon. By the way, this is a Bearcatnews Basketball Forum. Do you have anything to offer on Bearcat Basketball?

[Major ----de Coverley]

Another of the Longtimer fan club members checks in. There should be 2 or 3 more weighing in soon. By the way, this is a Bearcatnews Basketball Forum. Do you have anything to offer on Bearcat Basketball?

One would assume you are familiar with the phrase "addition by subtraction". Please consider this before you post in the future. You "fans" will appreciate it.

[LongTimer]

One would assume you are familiar with the phrase "addition by subtraction". Please consider this before you post in the future. You "fans" will appreciate it.

That is such good advice that maybe you too ought to follow your own words. Once again....anything to add related to Bearcat Basketball?

[DMoney_70]

LT, you sure can get the natives restless, can't you? lol

[LongTimer]

LT, you sure can get the natives restless, can't you? lol

I'm definitely the most misunderstood Bearcat fan on here. After reading some of these posts, I've even thought about booing myself. But, it's refreshing to see my fellow UC alumni putting their Psychology degrees to great use in evaluating my personality and motives. I just wish they could use these same talents to help Mick figure things out and get us back to where UC Basketball belongs.

[ME80]

I'm definitely the most misunderstood Bearcat fan on here. After reading some of these posts, I've even thought about booing myself. But, it's refreshing to see my fellow UC alumni putting their Psychology degrees to great use in evaluating my personality and motives. I just wish they could use these same talents to help Mick figure things out and get us back to where UC Basketball belongs.

LT, you do crack me up :D

[Carin's Dad]

LT = pro⋅vo⋅ca⋅teur  
–noun, plural -teurs  /-ˈtɜrz, -ˈtʊərz; Fr. -ˈtœr/
1. a person who provokes trouble, causes dissension, or the like; agitator.

Whatever it takes - truth, lies, exaggerations, misrepresentations - the goal is always the same. I'm not a psych major, but I assume there must be some need to call attention to oneself driving this behavior?

Now watch, he'll come back with a witty (to himself) response in attempt to deflect the truth.

I only skimmed the comments but it seems that we have the deepest most talented team ever but that Mick is not as good a recruiter as anticipated. Hmmmmm???

[Not Guilty]

LT = pro⋅vo⋅ca⋅teur  
–noun, plural -teurs  /-ˈtɜrz, -ˈtʊərz; Fr. -ˈtœr/
1. a person who provokes trouble, causes dissension, or the like; agitator.

Whatever it takes - truth, lies, exaggerations, misrepresentations - the goal is always the same. I'm not a psych major, but I assume there must be some need to call attention to oneself driving this behavior?

Now watch, he'll come back with a witty (to himself) response in attempt to deflect the truth.

I only skimmed the comments but it seems that we have the deepest most talented team ever but that Mick is not as good a recruiter as anticipated. Hmmmmm???

Right. It doesn't make any sense, but the intent is obvious. I believe he was banned, so he has had to be more discrete about his intentions, but they still show up.

He called this team the most talented team we have had in at least 20 years, not because he believed it, but because he wanted to criticize Cronin after the first performance of the season.

In another attempt to criticize Cronin, he attacks recruiting despite his previous comments and without even factoring the circumstances that Cronin and his staff were recruiting to, as well as taking credit away from the staff for one of the best recruit we have gotten...EVER.

[bearcatbret]

what is so frustrating are people who can not see the good but only bash the team, the players, and the coach. Did anyone listen to Cal after their escape tonight? He emphasized that he loved the kids and that they were good kids BUT, they could not play D and they could not shoot free throws. He also commented that instead of making solid passes, they want to make the ESPN highlights with no look, spectacular passes that go out of bounds. If MC said any of that, these people would bash him as a coach and a whiner.

[Eastside_J]

It has already been posted on here many times that Huggs did not recruit well in his last 3 or 4 years. So upgrading from poor recruiting does not prove that Mick has recruited highly rated classes. You're not refuting anything. I said in my post that Mick has recruited well. Has he knocked our socks off or had a top rated recruiting class...absolutely not. Did every single one of us think that when he was hired that we would start seeing top rated recruiting classes....absolutely! It hasn't happened and thus, we continue to climb the ladder fighting for respectability and trying to get back to both the Top 25 and postseason play. The length of time it has taken to climb out of the abyss proves that his recruiting has been ok, but it could be better.

So basically you thought a coach that had taken over a program with one d1 player on the roster could start bringing in top 25 talent immediately.

What a joke. This has nothing to do with Mick's recruiting, your expectations were simply ridiculous.

We have gone from having ZERO big east caliber players to having a roster that compares well talent wise to the top 5 or 6 Big East teams.

If you don't find that remarkable, I can't help you fella

[LongTimer]

So basically you thought a coach that had taken over a program with one d1 player on the roster could start bringing in top 25 talent immediately.

What a joke. This has nothing to do with Mick's recruiting, your expectations were simply ridiculous.

We have gone from having ZERO big east caliber players to having a roster that compares well talent wise to the top 5 or 6 Big East teams.

If you don't find that remarkable, I can't help you fella

Wow, do I really have to break this down? To all the forum members who understand basketball, please move on to the next post. You already understand this. To the 2 or 3 posters above who have nothing to add other than attacking a fellow Bearcat fan, please read all of this multiple times. (By the way, this is a question for the admins....have the rules changed on attacking fellow posters....I'm still waiting for a few bannings based on the posts above). Anyway, let me explain.

Here is a summary of what I have said.
1.) We have one of the deepest and most talented rosters that I have ever seen.
2.) We will contend for the Big East Championship.
3.) Mick has done "well" recruiting, but hasn't recruited to the level I expected based on his prior reputation.

That's what I said. There are no inconsistencies there whatsoever.

Let's focus on #1 and #3. First, generally speaking, 5* recruits are expected to be major contributors in year 1. 4* recruits should also contribute a lot in year 1 but definitely by year 2. 3* recruits will probably take until year 3 before they develop into major contributors. 2* and below recruits may or may never develop in 4 years. I would expect an experienced 3* recruit in year 3 to be close to the effectiveness of a 5* recruit in year 1 (this is a generalization for the ones who need clarification...I realize that some 5* recruits play better than even good seniors, so you don't need to respond to this generalization). A good example is Rashad Bishop who is playing as effective now, or possibly even more, than our 5* recruit Lance Stephenson. Certainly, when you consider all phases of the game...offense, defense, rebounding, leadership, intelligence, etc, Bishop is ahead of Lance in two or three, maybe even 4 areas. So, here we are with 6 juniors and 2 seniors who have been through the wars and are now...finally...pretty good players. Throw in our 2 very experienced sophomores and some really good Freshmen, including one McDonald's All American and we now have an extremely deep and talented roster. This statement has more to do with recruiting plus the mix and experience on the roster. For example, the George Mason team that went to the final 4 had a deep and talented roster, and it had nothing to do with that coach being an amazing recruiter. The Villinova team that won the national title had a deep and talented roster and it had nothing to do with Rollie Massimino being an amazing recruiter. "Deep and Talented Roster" does not always equal "Amazing Recruiter"! Mick came to us with the reputation of being a tireless recruiter with a pipeline to the best talent in the country (per Anthony Buford's quote on the day Mick was hired). According to Buford, these great recruits were just waiting to sign if Mick got this job.

If Mick was an "amazing" recruiter, we wouldn't be sitting here in year 4 still waiting to get back to postseason play. But, he has recruited well and he has us poised to make it all the way back this year. There is no inconsistency in my statement about a deep and talented roster and Mick recruiting well. Please don't use the Mick started with one player argument. It's tired and boring. This is now his complete roster, his team, he's in his 4th year....it's time to drop the excuses and just win. He finally has the deep, experienced team that he needs and let's just get it done. Sorry, no ulterior motives in what I have said...no inconsistencies....just facts. For Not Guilty, Eastside J and Major de Coverboy, please feel free to debate the facts is you wish, but dispense with the name calling and accusations because you don't know what you are talking about and you are 100% wrong when it comes to questioning me as a fan.

[Major ----de Coverley]

Reminds me of the time I saw an old man in public who had wet himself and did not realize it.sad.

[LongTimer]

Reminds me of the time I saw an old man in public who had wet himself and did not realize it.sad.

Once again (3rd request)...anything intelligent to add about Bearcat Basketball??

[ucat4]

C'mon guys....LT wants Cronin to do well - we all do!! We love our team and WANT them to succeed and get back to where we think they belong (top 25 powerhouse, annual trips to the tourney, etc.).

Cronin was always touted as being this great, not just good, but GREAT recruiter, which I think he is. The first class was obviously bottom of the barrel, the second was decent but MC hadn't had much time to create relationships. I think it's fair to start expecting to see top 15 classes year in and year out.

Like LT said, this team is deep and pretty damned talented, even with the upper classmen being lower tier recruits.

[ZachAttack]

IMO it's insane that people expected Mick to take over a program that had been burned to the ground and immediately compete with guys like Pitino and Calhoun in recruiting. I REALLY think people in this thread are overstating how amazingly great his reputation was as a recruiter as a head coach. I mean, his body of work was limited to a few years at Murray State. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I will never understand the need that some have to nitpick him to death. I have to believe that most realistic, unbiased observers can see the steady progress being made.

[LongTimer]

C'mon guys....LT wants Cronin to do well - we all do!! We love our team and WANT them to succeed and get back to where we think they belong (top 25 powerhouse, annual trips to the tourney, etc.).

Cronin was always touted as being this great, not just good, but GREAT recruiter, which I think he is. The first class was obviously bottom of the barrel, the second was decent but MC hadn't had much time to create relationships. I think it's fair to start expecting to see top 15 classes year in and year out.

Like LT said, this team is deep and pretty damned talented, even with the upper classmen being lower tier recruits.

Thanks ucat4...glad you can understand the point. Let's quickly look at this year's class so far....a 3* and an unrated recruit. I know these guys are supposed to be pretty good, but Cronin is now established, the team is good, we play in the best conference in the land, we have at least 2 starting spots opening up next year, with the possibility of two more depending on what Lance and Yancy do, and we only can sign a 3* and and unrated recruit? How will our unrated 6"10" 220 lb. center match up with Syracuse's 5* 7'0" 270 lb. recruit? I kind of expected that Mick's 5th recruiting class would be a little better than this. Hopefully, he has found the preverbial "diamonds in the rough"! It also puts a lot more pressure on him being able to develop these guys into great players. We will see.

[LongTimer]

IMO it's insane that people expected Mick to take over a program that had been burned to the ground and immediately compete with guys like Pitino and Calhoun in recruiting. I REALLY think people in this thread are overstating how amazingly great his reputation was as a recruiter as a head coach. I mean, his body of work was limited to a few years at Murray State. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, but I will never understand the need that some have to nitpick him to death. I have to believe that most realistic, unbiased observers can see the steady progress being made.

I didn't nitpick him. I think what I have said about him is pretty positive for the most part. I just stated what I expected with regards to recruiting, but I also stated that he has recruited well. If you didn't expect him to be able to recruit, then that's great. I respect your opinion....and obviously you are at a higher level of satisfaction than me. If I grade him a "B" and you grade him an "A", we both like him...you just like him more.

[ZachAttack]

I didn't nitpick him. I think what I have said about him is pretty positive for the most part. I just stated what I expected with regards to recruiting, but I also stated that he has recruited well. If you didn't expect him to be able to recruit, then that's great. I respect your opinion....and obviously you are at a higher level of satisfaction than me. If I grade him a "B" and you grade him an "A", we both like him...you just like him more.

Just to be clear, I am really only referring to the recruiting aspect. Given the late-season meltdowns the past few years, I do believe that there are some very legitimate reasons to question Mick's ability to motivate a team over an entire season. On the other hand, he has notched some big wins against BEast teams who had more talent at the time. Now that IMO Mick has bridged much of the talent gap via recruiting, he has a chance to answer many of those questions about his coaching ability.

So, yes I do give him an A/A- in recruiting and a B/B- in coaching when you factor in the slow finishes, so maybe a B+ overall. If he can finally break our NCAA drought this year, I'd bump him up to an A- overall. If not, I will consider 2010-11 a make-or-break year for him.

[LongTimer]

Just to be clear, I am really only referring to the recruiting aspect. Given the late-season meltdowns the past few years, I do believe that there are some very legitimate reasons to question Mick's ability to motivate a team over an entire season. On the other hand, he has notched some big wins against BEast teams who had more talent at the time. Now that IMO Mick has bridged much of the talent gap via recruiting, he has a chance to answer many of those questions about his coaching ability.

So, yes I do give him an A/A- in recruiting and a B/B- in coaching when you factor in the slow finishes, so maybe a B+ overall. If he can finally break our NCAA drought this year, I'd bump him up to an A- overall. If not, I will consider 2010-11 a make-or-break year for him.

His bench coaching and player development is a whole different topic. I'm probably happier with his recruiting than I am with those two areas. He does tease us with big wins over supposedly better coaches. He seems to be a master at building us to a damn good team thru the mid-season....but there are those finishes that are not very good. With regards to player development, he seems to be ok, but there is the one glaring issue...Biggie...that really brings down my grade for him in this area. Obviously, player development has a lot to do also with the player himself and his attitude and work ethic. Honestly, I'm more in the C+ area overall for Mick, so that means I believe he is right there ready to take the next step to being a very good coach, but a few things need to keep improving. Anything short of an NCAA bid this year, and that grade goes down. If we are seriously in the mix for the Big East title, and the grade goes up into the B range overall. A nice little NCAA run and I am approaching B+/A-.

[Best Body]

Let's quickly look at this year's class so far....a 3* and an unrated recruit. I know these guys are supposed to be pretty good, but Cronin is now established, the team is good, we play in the best conference in the land, we have at least 2 starting spots opening up next year, with the possibility of two more depending on what Lance and Yancy do, and we only can sign a 3* and and unrated recruit? How will our unrated 6"10" 220 lb. center match up with Syracuse's 5* 7'0" 270 lb. recruit? I kind of expected that Mick's 5th recruiting class would be a little better than this.

Well said.

X got 3 guys rated higher than our top recruit, and Dayton got 2 (according to rivals), Matta got more than I can count.

I'll give Mick all of the praise anyone else will for landing LS. It was huge for the program. I've been less than thrilled with Gates, but in fairness he was highly ranked, so it's only fair to give Mick credit for him, in terms of recruiting.

The annoying thing to me is that many that point to LS's and Gate's 5* rankings as evidence of Mick's great recruiting success, want to completely hide from the fact that we have 0 of the top 100 players in the 2010 and 2011 classes committed. It's seems like recruiting rankings only count in Mick's favor, but we should ignore them when Mick fails to land any significant players from a class.

Last year, the team seemed as though it had 2 players worthy of starting for a "good" Big East team (Gates and obviously Vaughn). The rest seemed ike fine enough kids, and talented enough to come off the bench for an NCAA tournament team. Those were primarily 3 star guys, and that is what you typically get from a 3 star recruit. Though I think Biggie was a 4, so obviously there are exceptions, but the general point holds true. The team is therefore deep, but I'm not sure it has enough guys that would start on a typical top 25 ish team. And with Vaughn leaving, and possibly others, Mick needed to land one or two starters in the 2010 class, and more in 2011.

I was really hoping Stephenson was the start of great recruiting things to come from Mick. I am fast losing confidence, though.

[Eastside_J]

Reminds me of the time I saw an old man in public who had wet himself and did not realize it.sad.

I just don't understand how a guy could not see these statements to be in conflict.

Longtimer: 1.) We have one of the deepest and most talented rosters that I have ever seen.

and

Longtimer: "I said in my post that Mick has recruited well. Has he knocked our socks off or had a top rated recruiting class...absolutely not. Did every single one of us think that when he was hired that we would start seeing top rated recruiting classes....absolutely!


So basically Mick has assembled one of the deepest and most talented rosters he has EVER SEEN. But he has failed to get top rated recruiting classes.

And then he drops this gem: "I'm definitely the most misunderstood Bearcat fan on here."

Swap "narcissistic" with "misunderstood" and I think you have the key for the lock.

[LongTimer]

I just don't understand how a guy could not see these statements to be in conflict.



and




So basically Mick has assembled one of the deepest and most talented rosters he has EVER SEEN. But he has failed to get top rated recruiting classes.

And then he drops this gem:

Swap "narcissistic" with "misunderstood" and I think you have the key for the lock.

Wow, you still can't understand can you. Sorry, but I can't dumb it down any further. We'll just have to leave it as is. Move on....

[Major ----de Coverley]

Wow, you still can't understand can you. Sorry, but I can't dumb it down any further. We'll just have leave it as is. Move on....


Sounds as if long timer twenty dollar cheap does not have affection for Eastside's correct parsing of his disingenuous postings.

[ME80]

Wow, you still can't understand can you. Sorry, but I can't dumb it down any further. We'll just have to leave it as is. Move on....

Hey LT, any plans this weekend? Hope you get some rest, you sound stressed! ;)

[LongTimer]

Hey LT, any plans this weekend? Hope you get some rest, you sound stressed! ;)

Yep, I now have a new appreciation for Kindergarten teachers. Some of the kids on here should have been held back a year.

[JasonS]

The annoying thing to me is that many that point to LS's and Gate's 5* rankings as evidence of Mick's great recruiting success, want to completely hide from the fact that we have 0 of the top 100 players in the 2010 and 2011 classes committed. It's seems like recruiting rankings only count in Mick's favor, but we should ignore them when Mick fails to land any significant players from a class.

This is incorrect. Justin Jackson is rated by ESPN as the number 92 player in his class.

[Lobot]

Everybody back off and take a breath. Major i love your sense of humor but baiting LT is going to make things worse. LT, if you're getting called names report it. The admins and mods have a lot less time on their hands compared to last year. The fastest way to get our attention is a reported post. Everyone try and stay civil. It's only the beginning of the year.

[Carin's Dad]

Everybody back off and take a breath. Major i love your sense of humor but baiting LT is going to make things worse. LT, if you're getting called names report it. The admins and mods have a lot less time on their hands compared to last year. The fastest way to get our attention is a reported post. Everyone try and stay civil. It's only the beginning of the year.Baiting LT is like poking a rabid dog. And the response you get is just about as intelligent. :D (JK)

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

ESPN recruiting analyst Reggie Rankin echoed Cronin's remarks about both UC signees. He particularly praised Gaines' shotblocking skills.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

ESPN recruiting analyst Reggie Rankin echoed Cronin's remarks about both UC signees. He particularly praised Gaines' shotblocking skills.

His quote:

"Kelvin is a terrific shot blocker and rebounder and runs extremely well for a big man," ESPN.com's Reggie Rankin said. "He and (fellow 2010 signee) ESPNU 100 power forward Justin Jackson will fit perfectly into the Bearcats' up-tempo system."

[Lobot]

His quote:

"Kelvin is a terrific shot blocker and rebounder and runs extremely well for a big man," ESPN.com's Reggie Rankin said. "He and (fellow 2010 signee) ESPNU 100 power forward Justin Jackson will fit perfectly into the Bearcats' up-tempo system."

I'll take a shot blocking center. Last one we had turned out to be POY. I'd even settle for Art Long II

[HeThun]

I think the frustration of some UC fans with Mick lies with the inconsistancy of his past teams. An example, the end of season fades when we have every right to expect a big finish. Tired is not an excuse. This makes for concern among some fans relating to player respect of their coach and his coaching abilities. Is their player discord? Has the favoritism card been played?

I am not able to attend games, but from what I have seen on TV, they ARE getting better. Gates was a different player last game, and Lance is finding his place.