A coach to compare our progress to

[jeffto]

I think Billy Donovan provides a scenario on which we could compare our progress. He came to Fla. after two seasons at Marshall (after being a Pitino asst. at KY). His 2 year record at mid-major Marshall was 35-20.

His first year at Florida they were 13-17. The next year 14-15 (with a trip to the NIT). 3rd year 22-9 (Sweet 16). And we know what's happened since.

So far I would say Mick's on track with Donovan, but he'll need some improvement to reach Donovan's year two total.

Also, Donovan's 1st year situation had to have been better than Mick's. So maybe we should compare Mick year 4 with Billy year 3.

[CincyBeerCo]

THANK YOU!!! Have to admit, I haven't posted in a few days due to the near constant negativity and having no desire to be part of it. By no means am I (or should anyone) happy about last weekend's results, but it is nowhere near the end of the world. I truly believe we will see similar (not necessarily 2 NCAA titles, but strong NCAA showings) success from Mick and the Cats in this time frame. This is a great reference point...great post!

[nolte50uc]

THANK YOU!!! Have to admit, I haven't posted in a few days due to the near constant negativity and having no desire to be part of it. By no means am I (or should anyone) happy about last weekend's results, but it is nowhere near the end of the world. I truly believe we will see similar (not necessarily 2 NCAA titles, but strong NCAA showings) successs from Mick and the Cats in this time frame. This is a great reference point...great post!

Totally agree.

[Bearcat_DF]

I think there is a different way to go than to compare Mick to another coach (past or peer). In response to Keith's post last week, I suggested that we identify some objective indicators of Mick's success. Markers that will let us know if Mick is making reasonable progress or not.

Clearly, there will be a range of suggestions. Here are the indicators that I identified.

I can't remember what I said. I think I wanted him to have the Bearcats in the BE tournament by year 3. If he gets there this year, it will be a pleasant surprise.

Regular Season Indicator 1 - top 12 of the BE by year 3
(this indicator was based on making the BE tourney which has now become moot given the change in effect next year.)

Regular Season Indicator 2 - top 8 of the BE by year 4 / every year
Regular Season Indicator 3 - BE championship by year 10
Post Season Indicator 1 - back in the NCAA tourney by year 5
Post Season Indicator 2 - in the NCAA 4 out of every 5 years
Post Season Indicator 3 - out of the first weekend of NCAA 2x/10 years

Comments? Other suggestions?

Go Cats!
df

[jeffto]

Those are fine, if not a little unaggressive. In reality we'll all measure his progress by "W's"

IMO if we're not at he top of the heep in the BEAST by year 5, we'll probably be assessing the strengths and weaknesses of some other new coach.

[ralph1950]

I disagree, there is no coach to my memory that came in under the circumstances that Mick started with. There was not any recruiting occuring at UC for a year. When Mick was hired his job was to find enough guys to field a team for the 2006-2007 season. His recruiting started with the high school class of 2007. This year is rebuilding year # 1, last year cannot be counted. You should not begin to pass judgement on Mick until the 2009-2010 season at the earliest.

[jeffto]

And, why the heck can't he track like Donovan (with a year grace period)?

[TheDog]

Donovan with a one year grace period would be a good comparsion. But all I need to see is improvement/progress each season including this year, then I'll start to believe in Cronin.

[iamspen]

If Mick can't make the BEast tourney by year three, it'll be a travesty, as all the BEast teams are going to be in the tourney by 2009 ;)

[Bearcat82]

I agree totally with Ralph. The comparison of Mick's 1st year with Donovan's is total apples and oranges. Mick is doing a total ground-up rebuild with the benefit of being in the BEast.

[CincyBeerCo]

I agree totally with Ralph. The comparison of Mick's 1st year with Donovan's is total apples and oranges. Mick is doing a total ground-up rebuild with the benefit of being in the BEast.

I agree, but in fairness to jeffto, the original post stated it would be more appropriate to compare Mick yr 4 w/ Donavan yr 3 (and so on), as to account for the different circumstances. However, that is still sort of tough on Mick, as Donavan yr 1 still had much more inherited talent than Mick yr 2 (more than 1 year difference). Let it be said that I am a strong Mick supporter. I truly feel that he has the basketball knowledge, recruiting acumen, and motivation to elevate UC back to, if not past, the heights that we are accustomed to. The great thing is that if this success is realized, there is no reason to think he would EVER leave. This is his dream job!!! Mick will put every ounce of energy he has into returning HIS FAVORITE TEAM (was, is, and will always be) to national prominence.

[Colonel]

Also, Donovan's 1st year situation had to have been better than Mick's. So maybe we should compare Mick year 4 with Billy year 3.

Id have to agree as well. The BBall program has been in termoil for two years. Kennedy wasnt able to really recruit and Cronin wasnt either as kids were not able to really see where the program was headed.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I think Billy Donovan provides a scenario on which we could compare our progress. He came to Fla. after two seasons at Marshall (after being a Pitino asst. at KY). His 2 year record at mid-major Marshall was 35-20.

His first year at Florida they were 13-17. The next year 14-15 (with a trip to the NIT). 3rd year 22-9 (Sweet 16). And we know what's happened since.

So far I would say Mick's on track with Donovan, but he'll need some improvement to reach Donovan's year two total.

Also, Donovan's 1st year situation had to have been better than Mick's. So maybe we should compare Mick year 4 with Billy year 3.

Donovan made FF (title game) in his 4th year at Florida (2000) and back-2-back NCAA champions in 2006 and 2007.

That's a pretty high target.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I disagree, there is no coach to my memory that came in under the circumstances that Mick started with. There was not any recruiting occuring at UC for a year. When Mick was hired his job was to find enough guys to field a team for the 2006-2007 season. His recruiting started with the high school class of 2007. This year is rebuilding year # 1, last year cannot be counted. You should not begin to pass judgement on Mick until the 2009-2010 season at the earliest.

Tony Yates faced a similar roster situation in 1983. Had to sign bodies that spring to have a roster that winter. Not identical but very similar.

[jkwuc89]

Setting high goals is part of the job. Nothing wrong with aiming high.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Setting high goals is part of the job. Nothing wrong with aiming high.

Then so be it. I think there is little comparison between the two.

[jeffto]

Then so be it. I think there is little comparison between the two.

Back that up with facts please.

On the surface they look very comparable:

Mid Major Success
Pitino Assistants
Moved to a major in a major conference.

[jkwuc89]

I agree. The lineage and the career track between Donovan and Cronin look very similar. Florida probably was not in the dire straights that Cronin faced. But that is the only significant difference I can see. There is one thing Donovan faces that Cronin doesn't. Florida at the time was definitely a "Football School". And today, one could argue that football is still #1 by a wide margin at Florida despite the recent successes.

And I would prefer not to mention Yates. Outside of one trip to the NIT, his tenure at UC was a failure and his firing was completely justified. I certainly don't want to see a repeat of that.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Back that up with facts please.

On the surface they look very comparable:

Mid Major Success
Pitino Assistants
Moved to a major in a major conference.


"I think" is a clue that it's an opinion, not a fact.

I don't see any comparison between the 2.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I agree. The lineage and the career track between Donovan and Cronin look very similar. Florida probably was not in the dire straights that Cronin faced. But that is the only significant difference I can see. There is one thing Donovan faces that Cronin doesn't. Florida at the time was definitely a "Football School". And today, one could argue that football is still #1 by a wide margin at Florida despite the recent successes.

And I would prefer not to mention Yates. Outside of one trip to the NIT, his tenure at UC was a failure and his firing was completely justified. I certainly don't want to see a repeat of that.

Florida made FF in 1994. Donovan took over 3 years later. Florida is loaded with HS talent.

The Yates/1983 roster and Cronin/2006 roster were similarly built.

[jeffto]

Florida made FF in 1994. Donovan took over 3 years later. Florida is loaded with HS talent.

Donovan took over after two miserable years under Kruger - 12-16 his last year. KY won 5 national championships before Fla made it to its first NCAA. Not exactly a rich tradition.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Donovan took over after two miserable years under Kruger - 12-16 his last year. KY won 5 national championships before Fla made it to its first NCAA. Not exactly a rich tradition.

Repeating, Fla to FF in 1994. Donovan took over 3 years later. The state of Fla has gobs of HS basketball talent.

[CincyBeerCo]

Repeating, Fla to FF in 1994. Donovan took over 3 years later. The state of Fla has gobs of HS basketball talent.

UC woulda, coulda, shoulda made the FF (at least) in 2000. Cronin took over 6 yrs later. The state of OH also has lots of HS talent.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

UC woulda, coulda, shoulda made the FF (at least) in 2000. Cronin took over 6 yrs later. The state of OH also has lots of HS talent.

UC made its only FF in the past 40+ years in 1992, not 2000.

The state of FL has more athletic talent than OH does.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

Actually, Billy GILLISPE is a better comparison than Billy Donovan.

Gillispie is 101-59 (63%) in 5+ years as HC and now coaching at a level far above his previous spots.

Cronin is 82-44 (65%) in 4+ years as HC and now coaching at much higher level.

Both were great recruiters as assistants to big name coaches. Both have decent numbers as HC but haven't been on the highest level very long.

[jeffto]

I think Gillespie was already in the big time in his last job. Three years in a BCS conference is not quite the same as Murray State.

Additionally, except for a 5 year run, we've never been the storied program KY is. Talk about Fla. being a good state for recruiting, KY still has the clout to pick anyone they want and have an 80% chance of getting them - nationally.

I don't Mick and Billy G. are anywhere close to being at the same point in their careers.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

I think Gillespie was already in the big time in his last job. Three years in a BCS conference is not quite the same as Murray State.

Additionally, except for a 5 year run, we've never been the storied program KY is. Talk about Fla. being a good state for recruiting, KY still has the clout to pick anyone they want and have an 80% chance of getting them - nationally.

I don't Mick and Billy G. are anywhere close to being at the same point in their careers.

B12 is bottom end of BCS but certainly higher than Murray St. TAMU was at the very bottom of B12 too.

Kentucky has not had such recruiting clout since 1989. They paid players in the 1970's and 1980's for such clout. They no longer do that.

Cronin in the BEast and Gillispie at UK face similar challenges. Neither has ever coached at that level before.

[jeffto]

B12 is bottom end of BCS but certainly higher than Murray St. TAMU was at the very bottom of B12 too.

The 2006-07 Aggies ended the regular season ranked #7 by the Associated Press and #6 in the ESPN/USA Today Coaches' poll. The Aggies have set a school record for most consecutive weeks in the top 25, reaching a school high Number 6 ranking On March 4, 2007, Gillispie was awarded his second Big 12 Coach of the Year award for leading the Aggies to a 13-3 conference record and a second place finish behind the Kansas Jayhawks.

[Bearcat Fan Since 1958]

The 2006-07 Aggies ended the regular season ranked #7 by the Associated Press and #6 in the ESPN/USA Today Coaches' poll. The Aggies have set a school record for most consecutive weeks in the top 25, reaching a school high Number 6 ranking On March 4, 2007, Gillispie was awarded his second Big 12 Coach of the Year award for leading the Aggies to a 13-3 conference record and a second place finish behind the Kansas Jayhawks.

Indeed, a good season. Weak schedule overall. B12 not the best conference, to be kind. No pressure at TAMU. Tons of pressure at Kentucky.

The Kansas and Kansas State coaches also had good years in B12 in 2007.